Breaking Free From Control with Hollie Ugarte

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfilment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the Ian Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this word, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

tremendous courage from today's guest, Holly Hagar tape just a word of warning she does mention how she experienced sexual assault when she was a youngster. So if that's something that might trigger you then just know that that's that will come up. And then she talks about how that impacted her life and the different challenges she had in relationships in a marriage that was extremely controlling and, and also same time experiencing a similar sort of control from the church environment that she was in. So this is a big one about the ability to come back from all of these different moments in life and be able to come out the other side, find a beautiful relationship where she is in love and enjoying life, found purpose and being able to give back to the world. really inspiring. And like I said extremely courageous chat with Holly hagarty. Enjoy.

Hey, everyone, and welcome and hello to my guest this week week. Holly guard. Hey, Holly, how are you?

Unknown Speaker 2:16

Good. Thank you.

Ian Hawkins 2:18

Good. Now first time for me I had your husband on a few weeks back and for the first time I've had a couple on to tell their stories which is awesome. So we'll run your first for that in said that, your story will be a great one to share. So I'm looking forward to unpacking it today and we just had a bit of a talk before we came on about a number of different big occasions but you said you before we get to that you said you've always been someone who question what life was about and for me that that's been me my whole life as well the things that didn't make sense the mummy some of those things are like almost supernatural or just anything that was out of the ordinary just trying to make sense of it all. So tell me a little bit about how that unfolded for you as a youngster

Unknown Speaker 3:15

it's interesting, it's an interesting question really, because it's not something that I've necessarily known until now. A lot of what it actually meant for me as a youngster if that makes sense because when you're growing up you kind of think that things are as they are normal. But there are a lot of things that happen or that I recall that make me think you know what that there was some anxiety a lot of anxiety actually there growing up and not really understanding why I felt the way I felt about certain things but yeah, I was never I was never a great sleeper always had trouble drifting off to sleep often would be tired but very active and quiet a quiet Why would think that was quite shy. I like quite quiet growing up but yeah, just like thinking back now. I think I always I always just wanted to be accepted. I always just wanted to be loved I guess. And that's not saying that I wasn't loved. But obviously I wasn't experiencing the kind of love that I needed to feel it.

Unknown Speaker 4:43

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so in mono, like you said, My searching for that. I was. I was brought up Catholic. So God was always a big then, I guess in my life.

Unknown Speaker 5:03

And then as I grew up, I sort of started to find my own journey and became more Christian. Not not necessarily a practising Christian, but just Christian in the belief that yeah, I believe that there was a God and I didn't understand things, I always felt like there must be a purpose or greater purpose, but I had no idea how that you know, how that shaped my life or what that meant for my life. But definitely struggled heaps were taking on, I guess, feelings or impact in empathy, like taking on other people's grief, other people's struggles, and not knowing how to acknowledge them, but leave it with them.

Ian Hawkins 6:06

Yeah, but I can relate to so much of that, like, I was the shy kid that really needed to be included. And I, again, looking back for me, as well, I know, I did a lot of observing human behaviour and what works and what doesn't, and who, who needed to be left alone who needed to be included all those different things. I think that those early days definitely shaped so much of how we behave then going forward.

Unknown Speaker 6:35

Absolutely, yeah. And I was I was a twin as one of twins as well. So I've got a twin brother. So it's not like I was alone. You know, I wasn't an only child. I did. I did have those connections and those relationships, but for some reason, that didn't. That wasn't enough for me. So I'm not sure why or where that came from. My mom always says that, you know, like, my brother was the perfect baby. happy and smiley, and he would be the one that everyone would want to look after my mom's as it was a single mom. So she would go and stay with, you know, friends, and this is when we were little little. But no one wants to look after me because I just scream. So right from day dot, that was, you know, I didn't want to be alone. I didn't want to be apart from the people that I obviously was attached to. Mum had quite severe postnatal depression. So she probably wasn't wasn't as available, perhaps. And maybe I picked up on that as a as a kid. And maybe that started some of the Act anxiety. I don't know.

Ian Hawkins 7:51

Yeah, I, I'm a big believer in that. Absolutely. And all of a describe that you basically made sure you got attention by being noisy. And I think if I look back to my childhood, that would have been the case and then continued at different moments in my life as well. Yeah, I know that. For the empaths. Were doing that work from day dark, like even in the womb, were absorbing other people's stuff. So if your mum was going through a whole lot of difficult stuff, then yeah, like, there's probably part of you instinctively knew that you had to be with her and, and helping her and providing that, that space for. And it's great to hear you've got that awareness around it, too. So you said that the real, like you've had a number of moments here, but one in particular that really hit home for you. Now the start of things. Changing how to be having a core negative impact was your daughter when she was five, her best friend getting quite sick?

Unknown Speaker 8:53

Yeah, so I, I was I've been married with one, obviously, I had four children, with my then husband. We've been married for 15 years, we've been actively involved. He's a Christian and very I don't even know how to explain it, but very, like Pentecostal type Christian, very light into living that lifestyle. So quiet, strict around some things. And I would move from Christchurch, where when I'd first got pregnant with my first my eldest daughter, and we'd gone to Nelson, where his family was, and I didn't know anyone. And so the support network that I had was his parents and the relationship that I had within the church that we went to. And obviously there was the school drop offs and the candy and things like that. So there was a few but a lot of Nelson's quite small. So a lot of those crossed, if that makes sense. And my my daughter chicane, and she's like I would probably describe her now as much like maybe similar to my mum and some similar similarities to myself in certain aspects of her personality. But she's a very caring, loving person. I guess the differences, she's got the confidence that I didn't have growing up. But going through those tough that time, I think was probably very difficult for her and has raised some, some things for her as well. Because she was only going to be flying all the time. And she had gone through kindergarten with this girl, and they've been tied at the hip. And obviously, her mom was great as well. She had four kids as well, they went to church. So we had all these things in common. One day, the NFL over at school and her league. And so they called the ambulance in, go off to hospital and did an x ray and found that she had bone cancer or osteosarcoma. So, you look that up, it's quite serious. And yeah, that was she just texted me that night was like Dan has got cancer, and the whole, the whole world just kind of changed in that moment. Because, because I didn't know, I was like, what, like, I didn't actually know how to handle the feeling the feelings, and no one just knowing what they might be going through, I guess. So that started a long journey of supporting them, but also questioning why, and how, and, and that led to questioning, you know, my own life and what, what I wanted to see for my life.

Ian Hawkins: 12:22

And you're drawn to what you said before about being the empath, and I wonder how much of her pain you took on at that point as well. Because I imagined for her the mom like you, I can't comprehend how horrific that must have been.

Unknown Speaker: 12:36

Yeah, it felt really heavy, really heavy. And I think too, like. I mean, I'd sort of learned a little bit by that time, of how to how to separate to a certain extent, you know, because I used to, I used to get all worked up and anxious and emotional, just if I'd hear a news story about like starving kids and, and, or the kids in Syria, for example, in the refugee camps and feel hopeless. So I used to be quite impacted by those things. But I also think, now, having lived a little bit more life, I am more able to differentiate between, well, I can't, you can't save the world. But you know, what I can do is do what I can do, and the people that I can do that for today and my life. And regardless of that, whether that's going to change the world or not, it's it's still having a positive impact on someone else's life. And so by the time the situation arose, I guess part of it was a little bit more I channelled the grief or the the feelings that I was getting, I channelled them more into like, well, what can I do that's actually going to help? And so out of that I did a fun run, which raised almost us about 10,000 in the first couple of weeks, just to help support the family. Wow. Yeah. So just stuff like that. No, I would never have done that. In the past. I was a personal trainer at the time. So just it was called the run for DNF was called and got all the local business went round around the local businesses and got the local business to donate, you know a prize. Because we have some we had some great local businesses and Nelson at the time, like proper crisps, you would have seen them in the supermarket and pecks peanut butter like all of those things. They are like bags and chips and stuff like that. And it was great. But it actually turned out to be really good. And it was a really positive way of contributing and helping out the family. And made me feel like, okay, I can't, I can't take away their grief, and I can't take away what you're going through, but I can do something.

Ian Hawkins: 15:24

So how did that impact you? Then? You've, you've had this opportunity. Okay, well, here's an opportunity for me to go and be able to give back. But what was playing out for you? If it had such a big impact on your life? How was that impacting your day to day for you? For your daughter, as a friend?

Unknown Speaker: 15:42

Day to day it? It became. It became more about I think, I started to question I started the question that I asked myself that came out of it was okay, if I was on my deathbed. What do I want was similar to what you said, What do I what do I want to be remembered for? Or what is it that I would be I would be proud of that I'd done in my life. Or would I be proud? Because another way of thinking about it. I started like thinking about that. And I was like, well, and even in regards to my children, you know, what would I say to them? You know, how would I What advice would I give them? And I think that, with that questioning, I started to then question, my faith. And I started, I started to have conversations with people, outside of that group of people. And I began to get, I guess, a different picture of what life could be, or maybe even should be. And some of the things that were going on in my marriage.

Unknown Speaker: 17:07

Yeah, so all of that sort of stuff. But ultimately, I think the driving question for me was, am I gonna be proud? What am I going this year? What would I say?

Ian Hawkins: 17:18

And yeah, like us, the people listening to this podcast would have heard me talk about many times before. And I mentioned before we can move on, that was the catalyst for me to was like, what all? What, what would people say? And it's and it's a really powerful motivator of change through those dark times. Now, you mentioned that, that kind of then started to impact your marriage. But you talked there about something before, which I felt like there was probably more to it than that. You. You're talking about your husband and him being quite strict. Like, how did that impact you? Personally, like was was when I say strict? Was it like, sort of dated model about male and female relationship? Was it like you had to do this? Like, I mean, I'm thinking about the, the old, one of generic words used to say, which is love and obey, right?

Unknown Speaker: 18:20

Yep. Wives submit to your husband, and all things, things like that. Yeah. So he's, like, initially, I guess. I was definitely a follower. Definitely not. Like I said, confident. I met him. I met him when I was 18. And I just kind of when I didn't really know who I was, I just kind of went along with how things rolled out, I guess. And then move making the move, like I said, from Christchurch to Nelson, that it that probably, you know, looking back everything good in hindsight. But that was quite an isolating move for me. And I also, I think one of the biggest things for me in the whole relationship was that I thought that I wasn't smart. And I thought that he was smart. And so because of my belief system around what I perceived myself, I didn't I didn't finish school, just putting it out there. I didn't go to university. I finished at the end of sixth form, so I didn't have the university entrance. And I just went to work and then before long time determined, and he just, to me, he just seemed this confident, smart, articulate, perfect person, you know, men to hide behind really. And I didn't have to worry about it. because, you know, he was the face of our relationship. And he wasn't he was charming. And and so because I had this underlying belief that I wasn't smart, and I couldn't achieve things I never like, I never felt like I did well at school, I never felt like I could concentrate on anything. And like I said, looking Hindsight is a great thing. You know, obviously, I was anxious in my mind was going 100 miles an hour, probably throughout my whole childhood and adolescence, and I just, I just didn't have the knowledge, that, that I really probably required all the support, because back then it wasn't a known thing, to be able to do the things that a lot of my peers were doing, I was much better off, going out and actually working. And keeping busy that way, rather than being at school, and my mind is going 100 miles an hour and not being able to concentrate, and then just feeling worse. So in my mind, my story was, you're not, you know, I'm not smart. I'm never gonna do anything. And even though like I've toyed with the idea of maybe one day doing this, or this, in the back of my mind, I'm going, I can't go to university anyway. Because, you know, I didn't get university entrance. However, you can go to university at any time once you turn 21. So, but I never got I never did got married, had kids. And so my life was more about at that time, being a good wife. And being a good mom, and whatever, my belief system around that came from the Bible, because that's, that's what I was in. That was what I was part of, that's the culture that I had at the time. So when you say, with my relationship with then with him, he was very much the church that we attended was very Pentecostal. You know, like, if you were struggling with something, then you had a demon that needed to be cast out or whatever. And we weren't to like things like the teaching was, and rightly or wrongly, we weren't to eat with anyone that was we knew was in sin. So like, you know, like, even people that attended the church, if we knew that they were in a relationship with someone, and they were, you know, not practising celibacy or whatever, then we weren't to eat with them. We weren't allowed to serve if we weren't tithing 10%. So, that means we weren't allowed to serve tea and coffee at church on a Sunday, after church. Time and percent of our income, and obviously, Wives submit to your husbands. So one of the biggest things for me, during that time, was the belief that no matter what, if, or how I felt, I needed to be there to serve him. However, that might look. So, you know, that means intimacy and all that sort of stuff. So it didn't, how I was feeling about things didn't really matter. So the danger, I think, for me, was that prior to, to this, prior to moving to Nelson I had been having counselling for. For events that happened in my childhood, that if I'd continued having that counselling, some of this probably would have been would have come up, and then maybe it would have been dealt with differently. Or maybe there would have been some help. But then the counselling was through ACC like it was legit, because it was all covered. So it didn't cost anything for me. But he didn't like me doing the counselling. So in the end, I stopped doing the counselling. And I just kind of fell fell off the radar

Ian Hawkins: 24:50

is that I didn't like doing cancelling in case it painted him in any sort of light that wasn't fully in line with his Christian Faith, that sort of thing, or?

Unknown Speaker: 25:02

Yeah, I think so I think I think things would have come up, you know, like, as soon as someone Christian, like, I did have friends before we, before we were married, and I continue some of those friendships during the first few years of marriage, and they would, they would point out things in a way that was quite tactful, really, they'd just be like, oh, you know, like, I don't know if that that's necessarily healthy or something like that. And of course, I would go on and, and try and have a discussion with, with my husband about it. And he would be like, Oh, well, that person's not Christian. They're of the world. And they're deceived. And it's not, you know, like, I don't want you to be friends with them anymore. Just stuff like that.

Ian Hawkins: 25:48

So I'm hiding behind hiding behind the faith rather than addressing it.

Unknown Speaker: 25:52

Yeah. And so eventually, it sort of just, you become and you become, you don't really know when you're in it, like I didn't really know. So I just, yeah, just kind of went along with stuff.

Ian Hawkins: 26:10

Now, you touched on intimacy, and then past stuff is a conversation you're okay to have. Yeah. Yeah. So was there trauma from when you were younger, that you were aware of weren't aware of that was then having an impact in your in that party relationship?

Unknown Speaker: 26:30

Yes. So growing up. Like I said, my mom was a single mom and my dad lived in Cocora. And we started going to visit him. I don't remember how old we were, but we must have been like five or six, we'd go for business holidays. And there was an incident incident at my dad's where he had a for here, friends staying. And the friend. Like, I've got three heart three half sisters, too. But at the time, I had one half sister, she was a year older than me. And my brother, so there was three of us. And he, he was staying in good sleep in our rooms, and he would take out the light bulbs. This is something for everyone to be aware of this ever happens, then you need to be asking questions. And he'd take out the light bulbs, and he just would tell dad that we'd be playing with the light switches. When the reality was that he was sexually abusing us. And and that was just his cover story, I guess. So. So that that happened at my at my dad's house. And that went on for a number of weeks and no body. So my brother or my sister said anything to any adults. And eventually, eventually I did because, because well for other reasons. But eventually, I went and had a chat to my step, stepmom. And then she confirmed it with the other children. And yeah, they got the police involved. So there was that incident. And then a year later, somebody broke into our house. This is my mom's. And same thing happened. And I think that that, for me, that was probably the the more defining incident, just because that was our community. That was my neighbourhood. Everyone knew about it. And it was never solved, either. Yes. So.

Ian Hawkins: 28:58

So no closure.

Unknown Speaker: 29:01

No, no. And for my mum, that impacted her hugely as well, because she just carries so much guilt around. Yeah, so that impacted our relationship as you know. Yeah. And had a huge impact. But and I guess, aside from all that, and also I didn't have a I didn't have a father figures like no, I don't believe I really understood what a healthy relationship looked like. And going in to my marriage. I hadn't really dealt, like I had cut. I'd had counselling know, a lot of counselling, but I hadn't really dealt with I didn't really understand what was going on inside of me. So I hadn't really dealt with it. And it just meant for me, I think at the time I felt like I couldn't. I couldn't really talk about honestly how I felt because of fear of being judged anyway.

Ian Hawkins: 30:08

Or even by the counsellor. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker: 30:11

So like, I carry stuff like all this stuff with me, and never really felt like I resolved in unit. And so I just carried that into my marriage. And when it came to intimacy, I didn't really know what was healthy and what was not. I didn't know how to say no. I didn't know. I ended up just learning how to disassociate so it just went, you know, from bad to worse. And then

Ian Hawkins: 30:47

to detect detaching from your body sort of thing.

Unknown Speaker: 30:53

And just and just doing and just doing what I needed to do to survive, I guess

Ian Hawkins: 31:00

that disassociation did that impact other areas of your life as well, because that's, that's a hard thing to switch out of.

Unknown Speaker: 31:08

Yeah. So that, that did impact other areas of my life. And I think I spend a lot of time probably, in a state of not really engaging with what was happening around me. Mostly because I didn't, I didn't know at the time, like, this is all just looking back. Like I didn't know at the time, necessarily. Why. But it definitely was easier. Like if something was happening that I didn't like, or something that I had felt like I had no control over or in, then it was easier just to go somewhere else. And just go along with with it.

Ian Hawkins: 31:54

So how do you go from that place to then the marriage, unravelling? And, and give? I imagine having the courage to, to take whatever steps you took.

Unknown Speaker: 32:06

Yeah, so that's the million dollar question. So. So it, obviously it took something significant to kind of shake me awake. And that was, I think, what that was what happened with the with my friend and her daughter, because it was, like I said, that was something that really made me start questioning things. And I then started questioning, you know, what, like, Am I happy? And what, what is, what is it that I want, and what I be proud of how things are and things like that. And as soon as I started having these conversations with my partner, my husband at the time, became very apparent that he wasn't supportive going to be supportive of it. So for example, I think it was around that time, but I was like, You know what,

Unknown Speaker: 33:13

I think I want to be a nurse. And I wanted to look into it. And so I started looking into it.

Unknown Speaker: 33:20

And he was like, no, no, you, you know, if you're gonna go to university or Polytechnic or wherever, you should have done that after you leave school. That's when everyone else does it. We're not paying to do it now. Just you know, you don't need to work. And if you do, then you can just work at a supermarket or, and so like it was putting value on me that I guess, yeah, it wasn't. He didn't. I didn't feel like he valued me that much. Yeah. And so the more I thought about it, the more I was like, No, you know what, I do want to do it, I want to do it for my kids. I want to do it for my girls, I want to do it. Because I love caring for people. I'd been volunteering for St. John on the ambulance. So I'd got my first responder. And I was like, Well, this is what I love doing. So So yeah, so there's an element of, I'm struggling with. This is what I want to do with my life. I've had kids, I've had a family. It's now time for me to do some meat and who didn't want to support that and I just became more and more empty, I guess. And to the point where I just I just knew that it was it was time it was over. So the next part of my journey was actually I was actually leaving. And that was very. That was difficult.

Ian Hawkins: 35:07

Yeah. I imagine from what you've said, Did you? Did you confront him? Or like, how did that play out?

Unknown Speaker: 35:15

So I told I told him how I was feeling. And that there was going to leave. We'd had we'd tried to have some counselling around it. But again, like it was, I guess I have to take some responsibility for this with the counselling. It's hard to be honest with you, if you know. Or if you feel like you're gonna be judged, or you're not sure of the reaction. So even though we were having counselling, a lot of the question around it, like he would choose the counsellor anyway, so it was always a Christian counsellor. And so I knew already what hit my, you know, reservations, and I hit my defences up. Yeah, and a lot of the questions were always like, well, you know, like, are you willing to work on it? And of course, I'd be like, yeah. When underneath I was probably should have just said, no, no, I don't want to work on it. It's over for me. Like, so that's probably that was probably my biggest mistake and or regret. I wish I'd just been able to be honest.

Ian Hawkins: 36:28

Easy after the fact there.

Unknown Speaker: 36:30

Yeah. And there's also the element of I don't want to hurt him. I don't want to hurt his feelings. You know, like, I don't want to just be like, No, I don't want to be with you anymore. So there's an element of me kind of thinking, Well, what is the best way to approach this? I'll just do, I'll just take the steps that he wants me to take. And I'm still going to leave anyway. So in the end, I did end up moving out. And I moved in with, like a friend at the time. She was actually a client that I was doing PT for when I was moved into her in her husband's spare room. We had a lot of kids even. Yeah, without the kids, I didn't have anywhere to go. I couldn't, we did have rental properties. And there was one that was empty. But then Daniel said that I couldn't live in it because it wasn't for my living. And, and this is how naive I was at the time. So I just moved into a friend's spare room meant that I couldn't have the kids overnight, but I could go see them at the house, and I could stay with them at the house. Our house was on the same block as his parents. So there wasn't that privacy. And he would just come down and I'd be cooking dinner and he would just turn up. Like he would just be there and end up saying dinner. And like it didn't give me that space that I think I needed to work out what I wanted. Because at this point in time, I'm I'm, I'm still kind of going through like,

Unknown Speaker: 38:08

oh my gosh, this is a massive, I don't even know if I can survive. Yeah. And then he had been he was following me. He was following me around. So

Unknown Speaker: 38:25

yes, it was he would turn up, I'd go and visit someone and he would turn up. And then he went to what you guys would call Centerlink. This was in New Zealand. So it's working income. So it's similar government agency to get some help, because he he froze the bank accounts. So I couldn't access any funds. And dice. They couldn't help me because we had property and property in my name. And because a property My name was it. Like they couldn't, they couldn't help me. So I couldn't get any kind of benefit or anything to help. So that's another reason why I didn't get a a house to live in because I couldn't get home. You know, I couldn't get the financial support in order to they'll do that. So they couldn't help me. And then and then he took out it was right before Christmas. His dad is a clinical clinical psychologist for the Ministry of Education in New Zealand and quite high up and then the government body and they took out a parenting order to say that I couldn't have contact with the children. Wow. Yeah. And that that just, I think that just ended up that was the catalyst really for me. And regards to I don't know what I am able to do here. and on the that night when I was served with those papers, so the basis of that was he was concerned about what I was going to say to the children.

Ian Hawkins: 40:14

I bet which I

Unknown Speaker: 40:18

would never have seen anything anyway, how we are harmful. So the judge never saw me. This is another interesting, I guess, part of the process. So the judge never actually saw me before, before approving that that court order, and usually the judge would see someone if they're taking taking, they're taking children away from a parent. Yeah, just because this sort of thing happens, obviously, quite a lot. When one parent will go and say, Well, I'm concerned about the safety because there has to be a major safety concern, usually to get one of these orders. And anyway, so I ended up tying it up taking an overdose that night, and I was admitted to ICU.

Ian Hawkins: 41:17

Is that because you didn't see?

Unknown Speaker: 41:22

Yeah, I couldn't see I couldn't see a way out. And I didn't know what to do. I didn't have any family. All of the support network was church. And they'd all kind of just said, No, you believed in, you know, don't have a bar view.

Ian Hawkins: 41:41

Oh, wow, really. So this is one of the things going up in the church as well, is how much hypocrisy there is around like, love looking after people service, and yet, but if you fall outside the jurisdiction jurisdiction of what we believe is right, then, sorry, all bets are off by that. I can't comprehend that. So imagine at that point that you that just feeling completely trapped. Did you ever think, oh, maybe I should get back to him? Well, that just wasn't an option.

Unknown Speaker: 42:18

I did. And I did go back. After afterwards, I did go back only back for three years. Oh, wow.

Ian Hawkins: 42:27

After the after trying to take you out of life. Yeah. Okay, so what so?

Unknown Speaker: 42:35

So I got, I got to the point of, I couldn't see any way out and tempted to take my own life, and then ended up in ICU. Because quite a serious attempt. And then, obviously, then, mental health team got involved. And so I then went down to Christchurch and spent three months down there with my mum. I still wasn't allowed to see the children. And I had to get Daniel, so I had to get a psych report to say that I was okay. So I got, I did go and see. I had a, I had a mental health team anyway, that was involved. Just, you know, I've never medicated. I never went and saw other psychiatrists, psychiatrists, or psychologists, sorry, who said you're the most. And like, I'm, like, the most normal person that I've ever had in my office. And his report said that it was there was a I don't know exactly what the name of it is. But basically, it was a what I was experiencing was a reaction to the breakdown of the marriage. So it was not depression, not nothing like that. It was just not knowing how to, yeah, not knowing how to deal with what was happening. But yeah, so he said, You're the most normal person I've ever had in my office who, who didn't have any concerns. Obviously, I was able to articulate how I was feeling and whilst feeling the way I was, and he was really good, actually, he was really good. And I I talked to him about to becoming a nurse and because prior to all actually prior to all that, which I forgot to mention, I had applied to become to I had enrolled in nursing and Nelson and I hadn't heard back from them whether I'd been accepted. So I had started that this was after we separated. So we separated and I applied. And then he's he took away the the ability for me to see the kids So it just kind of spiralled out at that time. And then while I was in Christchurch, I got the letter of acceptance, just after it was in January, I think it was. And so then Then things started to change for me, because then all of a sudden, I started to feel like I had purpose. I started to think, okay, how can I make this work? So went from feeling quite hopeless and helpless to, okay, I can, I might be able to do something with my life, and I'll be able to support myself and my kids and I can fight this.

Ian Hawkins: 45:50

Wow. So many different questions about this, this is what I sort of drawn to the most is like, do you have recollection of that night of making that decision? And has there been I haven't been able to reconcile that since then. I do think how could I have gotten to that point? Or is it like, like, yeah, just just that whole process? For the purpose of helping other people that maybe have been to that point, and haven't made that decision? Like, what, what, what sort of thought processes and processing since then?

Unknown Speaker: 46:33

I definitely remember, are definitely remember how I felt. So I think one of the biggest things was ruminating. So I just like, I couldn't stop. And this is when it comes back to anxiety, as well, like, my brain has always been very active. And I couldn't stop thinking about certain things. And it would just, it would just go on and on. But I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't see a way out. And obviously, when you start thinking, especially if you start thinking negatively, about things, yeah, like, and it could be as simple as I'm never going to be able to see my kids again. Or I'm never going to be able to watch them, you know, like, I'm never going to be able to do anything with my life. Or, or I have no control over. You know, where things have hit it. Like where they're headed, or you know, like, and you start questioning, you know, what have I done this? Like, how is this? How is this good? Or helpful? I don't know how to get out of this, things like that.

Ian Hawkins: 47:43

Yeah, this is I've heard and read a lot about this, is that that sense that it's permanent? But also, like, at this point, are you blaming yourself? Like are you signing? So it must be my fault for all of this?

Unknown Speaker: 47:57

Yeah, absolutely. But I have no, I have not a lot of insight as to why I feel like that.

Unknown Speaker: 48:08

I just know that that's how I'm feeling at the time. And I can't see how I can change it. Like, at the time, it's the it's the hopelessness, I think at the at the time, and being unable to see a way forward. Other than I'm constantly going to feel like this.

Ian Hawkins: 48:31

It's just a cultural thing that we assign blame. And from my own experience, that good and evil and all those different things I talk about in church, it's like, well, it's, we give it a name, right? So Devil's fault. Blame here, blame there, they grew up in a culture where that's gonna be someone's fault. Well, that was your fault. That was my fault. So then, when we go through these dark moments, we shouldn't it must be our own fault. Because this is why it drummed into us for so long, we believe. Yeah. So how have you been able to make sense of that now of realising that it wasn't your fault, and that lots of different circumstances from your past and not your fault to the point where you're even able to talk about it in such a courageous fashion in this setting as well?

Unknown Speaker: 49:28

I think what, there's been probably a number of things that have helped me

Unknown Speaker: 49:35

really, I guess, get into that. So I did commence counselling again, which helped which helped significantly for me. But also, I think, just finding hope for the future. So sorry. I like it. Like I said, like receiving that letter to say that I got into nursing. That definitely that definitely gave me hope.

Unknown Speaker: 50:12

And I knew at the time like, my, my mom at the time was like, No, it's too much. You're not meant to do it. I don't think you should do it. But I'm, I used to say, I know thyself. Like, I'm, I know that I needed something to, to drive that was mine. And something that I knew that I could, you know, like, potentially have a life doing

Ian Hawkins: 50:44

that the first time that you're able to think like that, when your whole life? Yeah. Well, I think that's been almost, or maybe it might have been too soon, but like, almost euphoric or relief sort of feeling.

Unknown Speaker: 51:01

Just gave me a sense of fight, I guess, I don't know. Kind of hard to explain. But gave me a sense of something. You know, that wasn't hopelessness. Yeah. No, no, no. And also, it opened up a whole lot of other things. It opened up a whole lot of friendships that opened up a whole lot of I mean, obviously, this is going on in the journey, but it opened up a whole lot of possibilities that I wouldn't have had otherwise. And I think the hardest decision for me was at that time was going back to Nelson.

Ian Hawkins: 51:54

Was that a decision to be close to your children? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker: 51:58

Yeah. And that I had very limited choice about how to, to proceed with it. Because like I said, I had no support up there. I don't think my mom just wanted me to stay down in Christchurch, but couldn't. So it was scary. It was a scary time. Like I remember feeling quite overwhelmed and fearful.

Ian Hawkins: 52:26

And more isolation by Imagine two that you've described a few times.

Unknown Speaker: 52:31

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It wasn't. At that point in time. I haven't decided. I haven't gone back. hadn't thought about going back to Daniel. So yeah, I just I ended up going back, I stayed. I got a similar scenario. I stayed at someone's house that had a spare room. And then just saw the kids when Daniel allowed me to see them. For the first six months anyway, of my nursing degree. And the I don't know how I paid for I can't remember now. I don't think I was working. So I must, I must have just paid paid for the room out of my living allowance.

Ian Hawkins: 53:29

You mentioned that you said, like you developed a fight and you had a big smile on your face is like, that's actually a key part of your story. I imagine this like you. You're a fighter. So does that mean like you've got a determination? Or is that a more of a sarcastic laugh of something that maybe shows up that shouldn't different times?

Unknown Speaker: 53:50

I think I've got a determination. But I don't think I am not sure that I knew that I had that determination. Until Until I went through that until I went through all that. Yeah, I think that determination came out, me through having to do things that were really difficult. And I think also it came out of me when, as I started to believe in myself, so when I started to actually do things that people said that I couldn't do, like nursing. Yeah, stuff like a night and I did it well. Yeah, it started to change. I started to be able to you know, like, actually, I can do this. I'm not, I'm not this silly way I'm quite smart.

Ian Hawkins: 54:52

So it's like them, what you've described is, like, fairly traumatic story. So how did you start to heal

Unknown Speaker: 55:01

Well, I went back to Nelson. And then I think about eight months into my first year of my nursing degree I, I was finding it so difficult, not being able to have the kids at night, you know, not like going from their fault, like the full time role of carer, for my children to only having access after school sometimes when, you know, when you'd allow it was very challenging. And I made the decision that I'd go back. And when I say that I made the decision that I'd go back, I didn't make the decision that I'd go back just for, like, just because, you know, like, I did a lot of thinking about it. And I thought, well, maybe we can, maybe things will change now. And we've like, I talked about this with him as well. And he's like, you know, like, I'm open to changing some things and, you know, some things, some things did change to begin to begin with, but obviously, your old habits and old patterns, they always, wow, they started to creep back in. So I went back, and then there wasn't that long, really, when I thought when I started thinking, Oh, this isn't, this isn't gonna work, this is not going to be long term. And for that, that was probably the next challenging time. Because then I was kind of in a place where I just felt like I, I felt like I spent about four years in a place of survival. After that first initial, you know, like, separation, and that first initial it will, I then took about four years, I think of just surviving. And it really did feel like just surviving. I did a lot in the four years, like I did my nursing degree. I did a bodybuilding competition while I was doing my nursing degree. And I did, I worked, so I'd go to school all day, and then go to work at night. And it's I'm diamond to bodybuilding. And then, but it was like a way of coping. Yeah. And, you know, like, like, I, like I said at the beginning, I'm definitely not so good at sitting, sitting, sitting down, and I'm a doer. And so to be busy, and keep my mind busy was probably the only way that I felt like I could survive through that time. And then, of course, and then last year that I was with Dan, his mom got cancer. And they, they lived on the same property as us. So that very involved in our lives. Had I, you know, she was she was, I'd lived here for 15 years. So she had spent, I spent half my life with his parents is almost as my appearance. Wow. And the funny thing is the first time I did leave when DAMMANN and told them, they did say to him, we did think you were being a bit controlling. But you know, we didn't want to say anything. So that was a bit of an eye opener, I think for him as well. So that kind of opened that door for that three years. Because then all of a sudden he was like, okay, so it wasn't, I am quite, maybe I am quite, quite controlling. I don't know can't speak to them during that time. But I know for myself. They were like parents, I really struggled when you leave someone, and you're also leaving, you know that, like I was leaving the family is such an eye for me. I struggled with it. Like it was almost as bad as leaving them. Because they loved them. So so there's a whole lot of like stuff that's, you know, tied up and intertwined into those decisions that you make. But yeah, like she got cancer and so I would often take her up to Ed and stay with her and Ed for the night because David would be in Wellington and Dan had work. So there was a lot of time and their spent just being able to give because it felt to me like I'd like leaving Dandan had also created a lot of hurt. So in a way it was a bit of time for me to be able to kind of give back a little bit and be like well Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 1:00:02

Like, I imagine they had provided a lot of stability in your life. And that perhaps hadn't been there from what you've described?

Unknown Speaker: 1:00:11

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 1:00:15

So, yeah, I can imagine that would have been, as you said, it's just another layer on top that that creates her within you. So. So then you made that decision to get out? What? What was the path you then went on to? Because for someone to be able to come on and talk so openly about the things you have talked about, then there must have been a fair bit of work you've done since all of this. So what was the journey then? Like? Was that one of those moments of synchronicity that something just unfolded? Or was it a very deliberate act to then well, I need to I need to work on some stuff, I need to have more support around this.

Unknown Speaker: 1:00:56

Yeah, so it was definitely the latter. Probably more of a deliberate act. So I'd done my nursing, I'd learned a lot about family violence, and mental health, I actually did my post grad year and mental health. So I learned a lot, just in that area, just through nursing. And then once I left the relationship, once I actually left, I started counselling again. And like, I've, I feel as though something Something must have shifted, I think between when I left the second time, and then having the ability to Well, maybe it's the knowledge I had it, like I must have had a gap in my knowledge prior to nursing that I was able to draw from the second time around. So I was able to understand and have more insight, I guess, and then turn that gave me more ability to change my perception of things. If that makes sense.

Ian Hawkins: 1:02:24

It does. Either there was more to it than that, or you've got more strengthen, fight leader scribe than the average person. Because you're talking about then generally, if I'm talking to someone through these different stories, they've got one of these elements, maybe it was a suicide, maybe it was some sort of abuse, maybe it was a marriage breakdown. But we're talking about like, you know, like this, this full amount that two things come to mind is like, was it rather steps you went through them? I'm really curious to know how you're helping other people who have gone through this because I imagine if you've been through this journey, that then you've built up a lot of skills, tools, strategies to be able to help people through the other side of this as well.

Unknown Speaker: 1:03:15

I feel like I probably am only just starting to touch on that in my life. Like I'm just now starting, having people reach out and say, Hey, and a lot of people probably don't know, the full extent of my story. You know, like, and I think I think for me, personally, I think I always had, I feel like I lived quite a lonely life up until just a couple of years ago. Like I feel like I hid myself away quite a lot. I feel like I definitely was not trusting of other people. I feel like I feel like I almost had to prove to myself that I could overcome some stuff and do some good in order to be able to then I don't know, like, feel good about myself or to be able to believe in myself would even trust myself perhaps. And I think too, like I couldn't like when I was going through that initial separation with with with my husband, I couldn't talk and I got I don't have anyone would will relate to this at all. Or I don't know if anyone has ever experienced this, but I would just I cry, like I couldn't talk. And so like when the provisionals. So like the mental health teams or whatever would come to talk to me, I couldn't talk, my brother came and sat in clay to go go into a meeting, he sat in on the meeting, and then took me to Christchurch. And I just cried the whole time. And I couldn't talk and I, that I felt really judged at the time by the, by the psychiatrist or psychologist as well, because they're like, you just, you know, you just need to stop all this or whatever. And I'm like, I can't, I had so much emotion, and, and whatever was going on inside, that I literally just could not form words, I just cried.

Ian Hawkins: 1:05:49

What I know of healing is that, that's so important to have those tears. And it's also sometimes when you can't make sense of things yourself and processing yourself, just having a safe place for you to be able to let all those emotions out, is just so beneficial in itself. And like just how you've described things and how you've the strength that you've built up, I imagine that's a space that you're able to create for other people too.

Unknown Speaker: 1:06:18

Yeah, I hope so. Like I think, I think but like I think about it, and I it's definitely an outlet, there's definitely an element of personal determination, or, you know, like her that that you have to, that you have to carry in, and also probably an amount, a certain amount of ownership. But I'm saying that I don't I don't think that just because something has been our way, doesn't mean it has to continue to be that way. And I think that you can let you can tap in to, I don't know what it is that whether it's something that we're we're born with, or something that is there, but we just don't, we just don't really pay much attention. But you can tap into that, the world to live. And I think when you go through something like that I don't like I can't tell you. The I can't articulate the switch. Like I couldn't say that it was this moment. That happened that happened over time. But there was a definite switch between I feel hopeless, and I can't see a way out. And actually, you know what, I'm going to do my best to do their best. And if you know that there was many things, I could say like, even my children, for example, like what would I tell? What would they be told? And what would I tell them? The end, so there was many drivers of that. But also in saying that to like my identity up until that time had been in, then and Daniel being you know, a wife and a mom, and having to find myself was a struggle. But once you have that, I think it definitely shifts some stuff in you. Like once you can take ownership over your life. And once you have some, you know, you can you can then start to move forward in a more positive way.

Ian Hawkins: 1:08:38

Oh, I love that. I agree 100% with that. Now, as someone that you said, you're always some of the questions, what life was about, through all these different moments and trials and traumas like what have you learned that life is about?

Unknown Speaker: 1:09:00

Well, for me personally, obviously, I've been a nurse, I worked in ad sales. For a while I spent, you know, time will be the most confronting place that you could be in as a medical professional. But for me personally, I think now, I obviously my kids are a big part of my picture. But also just I learned during that time to take it a day at a time. And I think being able to gain that skill of a day at a time has helped me to prepare myself more for what each day might throw at me. And it becomes more and more It's given me more ability to actually step back and say, Okay, what what? How can I be a positive? Like, how can I be a positive, positive influence in this situation? Or how can I, you know, like, how can I support this person? Or how can I be the best advocate for my husband and my kids? And, you know, today. So definitely has helped me with skills like that, and being more present, I guess, in the moment. I don't I don't feel like I'm running all the time. Like this analogy, but I feel like, I'm much more apt now to actually be able to sit in and think about the bigger things. I don't think I really had the ability to do that, because I don't think I really had I don't think I really had a picture of what the possibilities were.

Ian Hawkins: 1:11:12

Yeah. Like, you describe that moment where you don't see any way out, like when when your thinking is, it's like almost survival mode, right? That's, it's not a space that you're gonna necessarily create thoughts about what next, but I love what you talked about, they're coming back to present how often in day to day life, we get too caught up in what's been what's coming, and we lose sight of today. And

Unknown Speaker: 1:11:43

the nice thing is you and this has been something that that I've probably carried with me is that you're never like, we don't know, when our life is going when or when the the light of our life was going to be, you know, put out. So, if that was tonight, tomorrow, and an hour, you know, would I be happy with what I've done? And I suppose that question now is more at the forefront of like, it's more purposeful, my life has more purpose purposeful, because I'm living by that, that makes sense. I know what I want, I want to I know that I want to be a positive influence to people around me, I know that I want to love people, I know that, you know, one of their to give where I can give and support where I can support and be kind. So even through, you know, the whole divorce process, and at the moment, I'm going through custody, because my kids are still in New Zealand. And I'm trying to get them to Australia. But just reminding myself that I don't need doesn't matter how bad it gets. I don't need to be ready to sink sink to anything lower than what I want for myself, which is to act with kindness and, and be proud of the way that my life would have been.

Ian Hawkins: 1:13:25

What a great way of summing up life. I need to lower yourself. That's powerful. Thanks, Holly for sharing that. Now, you said you're you're kind of at that early stage of helping people but if someone's listening to this story, and they're like, Oh, this is the sort of thing I need help with, where can they find you Holly?

Unknown Speaker: 1:13:51

Like is in my email address?

Ian Hawkins: 1:13:52

Or we can just put the details in the show notes if it's easier.

Unknown Speaker: 1:13:59

Working? That's Holly Holly hrlm. Ie. We can just go to on Vita.

Ian Hawkins: 1:14:09

Yep, we'll put the same link is in the notes and people can find you. Yeah, cool. And I will always reply, I'll always reply. Not someone that doesn't reply. So I'm on Facebook to cool. They will can still be I mean find you there. Awesome. Holly, again, a tremendous courage to be able to share this story so openly and and give so much wisdom and golden hope I'm Majan for many people have been through similar stuff and I really only you and appreciate you sharing. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker: 1:14:51

No problem. Thank you for hearing me. You're welcome.

Ian Hawkins: 1:14:54

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you So much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief, let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favourite podcast platform

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