Ep 512 - Emotionally Intelligent Parenting with Steph Pinto

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back, you've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the Ian Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. When you're an empath, or sensitive to other people's emotions, like I know all of you are gonna have a real impact on you growing up and then continue to do so into your adult years. Today's guests, Stephanie Pinto describes her journey, particularly around anxiety, and the impact that had to the point where it would make her faint, describes the pressure that would build in different situations and the impact of being that people pleaser and the needing to keep everyone happy, and then at different times not wanting to let anyone down. So like I said, I know a lot of you will resonate with those sort of messages. One of the tapes out of this one, sharing her knowledge around emotional intelligence, particularly from that scientific perspective. So I hope you take as much out of it as I did. Enjoy. Hi, everyone, and welcome to this week's guest, Stephanie Pinto. How are you, Steph?

Unknown Speaker 1:55

I'm feeling good, a little bit nervous.

Ian Hawkins 1:59

Nothing to be nervous about. You're an expert in emotional intelligence for children, and specifically, from what I read, actually helping parents to build their emotional intelligence. So I know there's a lot of parents who will be listening to this, who will be keen to get some tips on this. So how do you end up doing that for your work stuff?

Speaker 1 2:22

Well, I haven't been doing it all that long. I've been doing it for probably about five years. And before that, I was a pediatric pediatric speech pathologist. So obviously worked in and around kids all the time. And that was my bread and butter. And it was from a you know, language communication, articulation kind of point of view. But towards the end of that, which was about 10 years, I worked as a Speechy. I really, I mean, I discovered emotional intelligence just online, as you do, you know, stuff was coming in my feed. And I was like, What is this food like? Fluffy? You know, why are we talking about this? This is a thing talking about emotions and being intelligent. But very quickly, I got really captured by it. And I think I found it was something very foreign to me. Just because of how I was raised, and you know, a lot of us were raised, I think that way, not really talking about emotions and not valuing them, not kind of giving that time to them. So yeah, I found it fascinating. And it seemed like a bit of a superpower almost, I thought, well, you can have a handle on your emotions and be confident and resilient. And anyway, so long story short, I did maybe kind of burn out a bit as a speech pathologist. Just that that was around the time, the last few years of which the NDIS came in. So all the funding packages changed. And everything was kind of business model II and yeah, so there was a big change. And I thought, You know what, I wonder if I could kind of run it, something on the side with doing emotional intelligence for parents, because I kind of get kids, you know, I've got that training. I've got two kids of my own. But like I get how they take them, I get what motivates them. And I think sometimes like they do so. And yeah, I just remember thinking, why aren't we doing this emotional intelligence stuff for kids, when they are young, and just raising them in an emotionally intelligent culture, rather than waiting till we're in our 30s or 40s. And it's, it's something we do at work as professional development or you know, someone comes in and seminar. So yeah, it's kind of Griffin. That's

Ian Hawkins 4:39

cool. When you look back, do you feel like as a speech pathologist, you already teaching emotional intelligence to these children? Because I imagine that's part of peeling back the layers to help them speak, right? Yes,

Speaker 1 4:50

yeah. So it was a big part of my speech pathology career. I worked with autistic kids kids with ADHD. So I was in that neurodivergent space. already, and a big part and my last position was at aspect, which is Autism Spectrum Australia. So that was very rewarding, very challenging. A lot of times I felt out of my depth and like I was this newbie who knew nothing. But yes, along with communication and language and you know, pragmatics and stuff like that. There's actually a lot of social and emotional skills and teaching that we were doing for the kids just so that they knew how to handle friendships and ask for what they wanted and, and advocate for themselves and express themselves and stuff. So yeah, kind of interlinked. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins 5:38

massively rewarding, I imagine to help them get those breakthroughs, where they're suddenly been able to communicate how they want to, yeah, just

Speaker 1 5:45

to like, think about it not to be able to get your needs met, and not to be able to ask what you want, or say, I don't want that. It's enough, too much. Stop it, you know, no one did you know, these kids are sometimes very frustrated. Because, yeah, communication is huge. So

Ian Hawkins 6:02

I feel like that's part of what I do for adults now. To be able to communicate and effective whenever their needs met. Because you think about like how often those patterns follow us through into adulthood. And then they present in certain ways, and I know for you that was in a particularly overwhelming way, I guess you would say, you describe to me a scene. So yeah, for the listeners, please. Let us know sort of how things are the folder view around life stopping you in its tracks?

Speaker 1 6:31

Yeah. So as a quick backstory, I was what you would probably call high functioning and anxious, like, I had high functioning anxiety. And I would say, you know, I mean, we all know that the soup that we kind of swimming in as kids really programs us and I learned not to speak up, not that I was explicitly taught, like, you know, I often say to people, my parents are beautiful, they, you know, we had a great childhood and so on. But I learned not to speak up, I learned not to express myself, I learned to just kind of get on with it and be a good girl, and not rock the boat and not ruffle the feathers, all of those sayings. But kind of was obviously very unproductive, it did not help me in certain situations were when I got really anxious or nervous, rather than just the kind of sweaty palms and the heart racing. My body's response was to really go to the extreme and faint. So I was yeah, I pretty quickly fell down on the floor, which was mortifying, and I felt, you know, ashamed and embarrassed. And I thought, What's wrong with me, and it didn't actually make sense, because I was very fit, I was very healthy. You know, we did sport as kids and, you know, we eat well, and stuff. I was like, you know, I don't understand why this is happening. And I ended up seeing a psychologist for a number of sessions, I think somewhere in my 20, early 20s. And which didn't it like, overall, you know, it didn't really benefit me a whole lot. I'm not saying that, you know, therapists are not sometimes worth their absolute weight in gold, but I just didn't, it didn't work for me. And I remember explaining to her situation, because I say the market tends to be when I'm at work, or in a high pressure situation or nervous, I remember fainting at that was one of the hospitals here in Sydney that I did that prac at as a speech pathology student. And we were about to go to the stroke Ward, and I walked down the corridor to see my first patient and just fainted because I was so nervous and funny, this is not the story within that kind of a funny story. Because I woke up in those little, you know, the little tiny kind of rooms where there's like a couch and a TV and the family can sort of sitting there, it's not a hospital room. I wasn't there. And there's about five people like hovering around me. And they said, we got the crash cart because your pulse went so low, we couldn't even feel we couldn't feel your pulse. So we were really worried. I was like, No, I'm just gonna faint. I just found like, I'll be okay. Give me a few minutes. So, so I, you know, I was I knew it was in those situations where I couldn't handle them. There was just too much I didn't realize it was about my emotions and anxiety being one of them. But I remember the therapist saying, you know, you don't want this to go so to take over so much and go so far that you're, you know, with your partner at a at a restaurant and you start feeling nervous just being out in public. And I was like, No, I don't want it to get that bad. And then I remember probably not long after that I was in a cafe with some other speech pathologists and occupational therapists, I think was an interview thing. And I remember thinking, I'm trapped. I can't do this. I need to get out. I'm gonna faint everything's gonna be black. They're gonna think What the hell's wrong with her and I was like, here we go. Like this is this is you know, it was a bit of a turning point where I was like, okay, This is my body's telling me something. And it's, I need to get some help.

Ian Hawkins: 10:06

Yeah. So did you remove yourself from the situation at that moment? Or? Yeah,

: 10:09

so I did what I always did, which was I found that I needed to go to the bathroom and you know, something, I don't know, I need to pop out. So I kind of edged my way out of the booth. And then just kind of collected myself in the bathroom didn't really I probably tried some self talk or something. I don't know, I really had no tools or coping skills or anything. Because I remember one of the things that therapists telling me was that maybe, you know, we move into a place of acceptance of this, how sometimes you're you reacting, you know, you faint, and there's nothing bad, nothing ashamed to be ashamed of, and what happened. So what if you just woke up and said, I'm sorry, I just need a moment. I've, you know, I need to? And I was like, Um, no, I don't want to just that's mortifying, it's, like helped me stop it. So yeah. So that didn't really I mean, yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 11:05

To me, it's, it's about other people talking about that we have a sort of a great experience of psychologists but others not so much. And to me, it comes down to the same places, like if they haven't experienced something similar, that it's hard for anyone, whether you're a coach or a psychologist, therapist, counselor, it's hard to give something definitive. So when you weren't getting that response, that you not just wanted, but needed, like, Why did you turn to them? Like, this is a big deal, right?

: 11:35

Yeah, I probably turned to avoidance of parole. While I wish, like now that I do anxiety therapy, I do a particular program for kids and teens. And I often say I wish that was around when I was young. But it wasn't. So I know that avoidance is very unhelpful, and it just sometimes exacerbates the those feelings and the anxiety because by nature of you escaping the situation, you learn that it only safe because I've escaped, I can't stay in it, because it's too scary. It's too dangerous. And so I will leave and then my nervous system comes down. So I didn't Yeah, I think I didn't do a whole lot for a long time. And it sounds strange, but just me continuing to learn about emotional intelligence, and to start to have a handle on my emotions, and more of who I was as a person, I was very, very, that's a better way to say unconfident. I was very lacking in confidence. And so I yeah, I think just my, a part of my overall growth and getting out of my 20s and I'm still, you know, I'm still building my confidence and in just who I am and what I know, and then have something to say and that I'm, I'm worthy of the space that that stuff, I think because what was underneath the, the anxiety and the fear was, what if people realize I'm really dumb, and I have nothing worth saying, and I'm stupid, and I'm a waste of space. Like that whole, that whole thing says, those beliefs sit right underneath. So no wonder if you think Oh, my God, you're gonna find me out that I know nothing. And, and I'm a fraud and an imposter. Then, yeah, like, you wouldn't want to escape that situation. It's, it's scary. So yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 13:29

well, I was gonna ask you what, what was the scary and dangerous for you at that age? But but that was it like you're getting exposed? Wow. And so why? Do you know why you've you had that belief that you that you weren't smart.

: 13:42

Um, I'm the youngest, well, without just painting a very pretty, like brief picture, and the youngest of three. And I always felt like the smallest than the littlest and the youngest and the dumbest, and not not very intelligent. Like, I didn't have much to say, I felt like a little kid, you know, the freckles. I was very friendly. And I didn't know I just had this picture of myself as not very important. And I know my brain will have back to that up every chance it got through when my older brother or sister did something, you know, did something great or did something first and then I followed. I followed my sister into basketball. I followed her into netball. And I actually realized this a little while ago that in our family, we weren't very lucky. I understand very lucky that we were able to go to university. My sister went off first, Who's the oldest and then my brother went, and then it was I finished your 12. And my parents were like, okay, so what are you going to do at university and I was like, and I remember getting back then it was the US book, the university admission center or something. And so I remember getting that giant book, phone book, and I was like, flipping through and I was like, and I loved I did for unit English in in high school. It was yeah, for your English. I did. I'm Japanese all throughout my high school like seven to 12. Because I love language. I love creative writing and stories and language. So anyway, I was like, oh, maybe, maybe speech therapy like that. That's about talking and language, isn't it? So? So there we go. I literally was like, this one. And so I felt like it was almost picking a, something off the menu. I just thought, well, we are all going and I have to go. So I better pick something. It was like there wasn't an even Do you know what those beliefs is? Like, not even realize you don't even fathom that things could be another way. You're like, no, no, this is just what we do.

Ian Hawkins: 15:33

Yeah, I just feel like that. It's also more than a coincidence. That's where you fell into, right? You're describing having something to say and, and needing to get your your voice out there and your message across and and they you helped me other people do the same? That's pretty cool.

: 15:51

It's funny that if you were not if you asked my husband, he's lovely. But from my point of view, I'm probably the world's worst communicator when it comes to like, disagreements, arguments, discussions, especially with him because we're the closest we met when we were 16. So we like grew up together. So he's, I don't know, I feel like sometimes I'm still that old, 16 year old staff who would not say boo to a mouse, is that the right? You know, who wouldn't be able to speak up? I remember we had our first arguments just as couples do. And I would crumble. Like, I would form a piece I give it or whatever. Because it was so intolerable to my brain to be able to disagree and say, No, I see something different. No, I'm going to stick by that. And I think you're wrong. I could not say that. So, yeah, funny that you say now. I mean, it was maybe meant to be that I fell into that because I I really, I still have to learn. You know, I'm still learning how to communicate.

Ian Hawkins: 16:50

Yeah. I was just thinking that my memory of going through that UX book and I sort of narrowing it down to World Sports big part of my life, I look for sport and and sort of where I landed, which is that a teaching degree? Like I've never really used that teaching degree and yet, kind of, that's what I do now. Right? Just a different. Yeah, word. Court thing different. Yeah. Yeah. So I love how these in inverted commas coincidences, take us to exactly where we need to be. You mentioned that, that you described it as crumbling. There's two ways I've seen this growing up. It's like, we either experience intense confrontation, so we want to avoid it, or we experienced none. So that the households quiet there's not too much going on. So in the rare times that does something does kick off, then it's so uncomfortable, right. So I feel like that was my family and, and there has been different times where I've talked to my siblings about one extreme to the other, either uncomfortable with confrontation, or the other way around. Was, was that one of the two extremes for you that made that then going into that experience? Challenging?

: 18:03

Yes. So my parents, English. So we generally again, it's super loving super, like always there when whenever we needed them and everything. But we didn't tend to talk about emotions, and emotional situations. And I know I've taken a lot of that through as an adult, as everyone does. But a little bit of the, you know, we had if there was some disagreement or argument it was quickly kind of closed, closed, I don't wanna say shut down, but like, shut down, you know, closed off, swept sort of aside, like we move on, we don't revisit it or rehash or repair. I remember just, you know, obviously, as kids being we get told, go to our room and things like that. And that was the end of it. So not like I didn't learn how to I didn't really witness much, many big arguments, explosive arguments, in that I can remember it was probably heated, quietly heated words and then one parent acquiesced. And so I didn't really learn how to have those big blow ups how to really stand my ground I think, again, like you know, this is kind of some it's hard to pinpoint things from childhood this happened so long ago, but I don't remember. Yeah, being okay to stand my ground and have a difference of opinion. I just learned to kind of go with the flow and not to rock the boat and, and that meant I didn't really learn this is an interesting thing. I didn't learn how to be angry. I just learned that it was really not best to be angry. It was not very nice. It was a bit rude and maybe disrespectful or too loud, too much. To Be quiet and things like that. So and the arguing was bad. I still like I had to get With that, when my to argue my two kids, I had to be like, this is healthy. Like, let's let's hear it out what's happening instead of like, should be just everyone go to their rooms take you know you each get a whatever it is and so yeah, I had to I had to learn how to be angry. It's still very hard for me I feel like I can get frustrated and probably passive aggressive, but I don't really get angry and if I do it's very unsettling and I feel very I don't know. Yeah, uncomfortable. And like I said, you know, so my husband is Portuguese. So imagine like me coming from English that kind of and then he Portuguese expressive. That's a very lovely way that I can use that one baby being very expressive

: 20:57

so yeah, it was very like, it's he's opened my eyes a lot to how it's okay, like it's safe to disagree. And it's safe to argue and not see eye to eye and to stand by your point. I still? Yeah, that's a still big, big learning curve for me.

Ian Hawkins: 21:18

Huh? Boundaries? Sounds like that's cool.

Unknown Speaker: 21:20

Oh my gosh. Okay.

Ian Hawkins: 21:25

So I want to ask you about your experience with anxiety. So having, it's not something that I experienced, personally, to a huge degree. But I've worked with people that have. And it's interesting that you draw that link, because you're talking about anger, and not for everyone. But there's a root cause around anxiety, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, because what I found is a big one is suppressed anger. Results in anxiety. Because it's like, the nervous system is like needing to get this out. So it reacts in a different way. So yeah, I'd love to hear your what you know, because you're a bit of an expert in this area around anxiety, like what you know about root causes and impacts and that sort of thing, and whether you've seen that link between anger and anxiety,

: 22:14

yeah. So there's a few things. The one thing that jumps out, as you are said, the link between anger and anxiety for a lot of kids, because kids are not so great at emotional regulation, they're not meant to be their brain is not wired that way yet, right there, their brain is still under construction. So kids who, on the surface can look really angry, can be really controlling really bossy. And things like that, and have explosive behaviors that can not always but it can be masking anxiety underneath, which is as we know, that fear of uncertainty and lack of control, and I'm not okay, I'm not safe, if I don't know, and can't control everything that's gonna happen around me. So

Ian Hawkins: 22:59

who actually made that you describe that maybe I did have more anxiety, but I'm thinking certainly resonate with those symptoms.

: 23:09

It is actually really fascinating. This is why I think a lot of just me learning about emotional intelligence, and emotions and what they are and what they aren't. And what they do for us, if we can give them the space, to sit in them and to value them and to honor them and learn from them. If we can do that, then I feel like a lot of the fear. It goes away around, at least for me, feeling certain types of emotions like anxiety, I began to almost, I wouldn't say befriend it, but just really understand it and go from that place of fear. Like no, no, I don't want that. In my look, thank you fix me, I don't want to find to just being really curious and kind of seeing it as my nervous systems way of supporting and protecting me. Right? So every every behavior that we have is really adaptive. It's really there to protect us because it's serving us in some kind of way, in the moment that we use it because we needed it. And so, you know, at that time, I had no other no other skills, no coping strategies, no confidence. So of course, I would run from that thing that was really scary and embarrassing. Whereas now I have. I mean, not that I want to faint when I'm like talking or on stage or something. But I have so much more compassion for myself and know that my body and my brain and my nervous system was doing what it what it was, what it is meant to do for me. And I can tell myself like there's no saber toothed Tiger. There's no brown snake in the path, you know, the whole I can I can kind of to an extent, rationalize that fight or flight and that amygdala activity, but I'm only really in the last kind of couple of years. Is been understanding more about the somatic aspect of anxiety that our emotions sit in our body. And then oh my goodness, there were if we've shut them down for so long and got really good at distracting ourselves with work or Instagram, then sitting under there and the moment we kind of shine the light on them. We're like, oh, yeah, look, right. There it is. So that's yeah, helped as well. I love that.

Ian Hawkins: 25:24

And no matter what kind of different challenges you have, that compassion for self is so critical. Like, that's a key emotional intelligence skill, right? Yeah,

: 25:34

we're so harsh on ourselves. I think we were harsh on ourselves than anyone else. We probably speak to ourselves. I know, you know, this, we speak to ourselves worse and more critically than we do of anyone else. I'd never speak to my kids the way I spoke to myself. And, you know, it's it's a real shame that, I mean, let's flip that. It's great that now, things like emotional intelligence is becoming mainstream mindfulness, meditation, self awareness. We're starting to see those things. goodnesses I think necessary and normal and very human, rather than, you know, silly or fluffy or woowoo. You know what I mean? Yeah, we're not just we're not just hands on a stick. We've got this whole body and this nervous system that's doing a lot for us and to us if we don't, if we don't realize. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 26:31

absolutely. Now, you mentioned a couple times around that nervous system, and that fight flight or freeze response, keeping us safe. And you said, when you're in that cafe, want to dig more into that particular situation for those people who have experienced that right. Have you done enough? Well, I imagine you've done a heap of work on this particular stuff? Like, do you know why you felt trapped in that specific situation? Yeah. And was it taking you back to a moment from your past?

: 27:06

Yes, and you've just made me think of another instance, that actually are handled so much better. And I wonder whether that's relevant to just kind of drop in right now. Probably a year ago, I want to say, I was helping my dad with some work. So he's a builder and a carpenter. And we were all helping him from when we were tiny, you know, doing little bits and jobs and stuff with him. And he needed this is a two person job. And I said, Yeah, I'll come help you on a afternoon. And it was in a person's second storey home, where they wanted a huge and very expensive painting. I think it was of like Bondi Beach, I think it was like beautiful. They wanted that hung on the they had, you know, as you walk in a staircase, and you could see this huge empty wall. And they wanted, it hung right at the top, so that you could sort of see it from below, you had to look up. But you could also see it from the landing upstairs. And so I was we had made the scaffolding and put it together. And we were sitting up there, and I was like, wow, how funny this would be the time when I would probably fail frequently, so much pressure in this situation on me to perform and to be, you know, to be good enough, because I couldn't oh my god, if I had dropped that painting 1000s of dollars, like, and we were up high, and the the husband and wife were saying I think a bit higher, and I think a bit lower. And in that moment, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna take some deep breaths, I'm gonna check in and notice that I'm feeling that it's so visceral. It's so hard to describe sometimes. But imagine, I know that the if you've ever had a moment where you're you've just been in fear, or you're late at night, you hear this, like, sudden loud banging on the window, and you get that fright. It's like that, that extended, and you're like, oh, visceral feeling. I was like learning in an airplane. Like, we're not going to get now at the top of the scaffold holding this expensive painting. And so I said, I called across to my dad down the scarf, and I was like, Are you right? If I just go get off for a sec, have a drink, and you can balance? And he said, Yes. So. So at least in that moment, I recognized and I kind of had a bit of compassion for myself. And I spoke this is probably the biggest thing. I spoke up. And I said, I'm not okay, a little bit. Do you mind like, can I take myself out and just calm down? And I never like this little switch in my dad. So like, Dad, huge, because he's like, trusting me with this painting and I just had this memory I, and I, you know, before at the cafe, I did not feel safe. I know the safe. That sounds that word sounds really funny. But in terms of like our nervous system has the autonomic nervous system, by the way, has this kind of jewel, it's picking up whether or not I'm safe, or I'm in danger under threat, whether there's some kind of threat I need to deal with. So am I calm, regulated? Safe? Can I engage? Can I talk and I listened, learn everything? Or do I need to be on alert and like, Get the f out of here. So, you know, when I talk about safe, like, I didn't feel safe, emotionally, to speak up and say, anytime I'm worried, I'm nervous, I can't deal with this. It's too much. It's too hard. I did, I felt like that would be outing me that I was this imposter. And I wasn't confident and I was just a little kid. So that's going back to the cafe that, that feeling of like, I kind of clicked on this word a little while ago, that almost like sums it up. And it's trapped. Because I felt like I couldn't get out of that booth. Because I also I was in the middle of that it's like dumb place to see it. Also, I felt like if I say in front of these speeches and OTs guys, I'm feeling really anxious. And like, I might find I need to go or calm down. You know, what would that be met with? In my brain? It was What's wrong with you? Like, just didn't know like, yeah, what's wrong with you? So I was like, no, no, I'm fine. You know, smile. People, please. Everything is good. And I quickly Yeah, so I really couldn't my brain at that time, could not fathom speaking up and saying, Actually, I'm not how everyone else like I'm different from the pack. You know what I mean? I can't do I'm not the same. I'm not okay, I need a moment on different even as we know, that's kind of one of those scary, limiting beliefs being different being less than being unworthy. So it's probably a mix of all of those.

Ian Hawkins: 32:07

Yeah. Well, man, there's so much to unpack there. I wonder, because we talked about, you know, the pattern, typically from our generation is, you know, emotions were suppressed, or they got told how to feel or where it was just shut down really quickly. That's pretty common, which is why we've got all these neurotic tendencies as adults. We're working through, but I wonder how often you heard that phrase? What's wrong with you? Oh, yeah, that's what's playing in your head. Because? Because how often? How often, like, I mean, I can't be saying recently, but I'm sure I've spelled that out at different times as well. But what's wrong with you? And, and the response from the other person would be just to reinforce the belief that something is wrong with me.

: 32:49

Yeah. Can I just speak to that for a moment? Because yeah, oh, my gosh, you hit the nail on the head in that. Okay. So two things. I didn't I didn't I don't recall hearing specifically, what's wrong with you as a kid, but I heard a lot of you're being ridiculous. That was the Word and match

Ian Hawkins: 33:09

translate in your head? Oh, yeah. What's wrong with you?

: 33:12

I was totally you know, you're being silly. You're being over the top, you're making a mountain out of a molehill is that? I've since heard, because I obviously work with a lot of parents. And I hear some crazy ones. I never quite heard, rub some dirt in it. But that's one. And well, you know, the whole I'll give you something to cry about, you know, why being so upset by the law. So I did hear yesterday being ridiculous. Or, you know, essentially, you're blowing this out of proportion. Which is yeah, what's wrong with you? Like just your Oh, it's fine. It was an accident. He didn't mean it. It's a scratch, you're fine, and so on. So I learned to be fine. But what I wasn't, but the second thing I wanted to say is exactly as you put it, what's wrong with you? I remember, eventually, over probably after many years of calling my husband out on it. Very, you know, mice mouse like because that was how I did it. And he would often say if we if I did something, you know, I forgot something or burned. I don't know the test the toast. He'd say what's wrong with you? And it was a real offhand didn't like he never meant it really maliciously. But that was that little phrase. And one day, I was just like, why did you say like, What do you mean, what's wrong with me? There's actually nothing and hearing the thing is he didn't see it that deeply, of course. And then he came to me later and he goes, You know what? I hear I heard my parents say that all the time. And both of us now. Still here. I love that they're beautiful. But we still hear both of them. That's their go to what's wrong with you by getting them and I'm like babe luck sorry. It's just Yeah, but I guess there's some kids that. I mean, yeah, for a lot of us that that kind of does, it becomes your inner voice, the words that your parents will say, we grab on to that because our parents, you know, they can't say or do anything wrong until a point. So we believe what they say. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 35:17

To me, that's just such a great point around emotional intelligence that you described there is that that's when you know, you've the work starting to pay off when you can have the self awareness to see it unfolding before your eyes and just have the presence to say, I see that that's cool. Like, I'm not going to react to that person who's just repeating a pattern from from their childhood. And, and that's cool, right? Because I've got my own and, and that's how we can have better conversations, particularly in the family unit. Because, like, we all know, where the triggers come the thickest and the fastest from our partners from our family, our extended family every time right?

: 35:55

Yeah, I think every time we see our extended family, generally speaking, we all go back into that I'm, you know, I'm five and 10, that kind of parent child dynamic, I think I think it's very hard to lose that. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 36:10

Well, we just keep peeling back the layers, right? This, there's always going to be an element that's there, but it's just continuing to do that. When you were talking about that moment with your dad, like, I felt like nauseous. And it's like, I imagine, right, that's all of these, all of these different things that you just described the other What's wrong with you, the people pleasing, the feeling trapped by all of those things sort of crashing down. That's, that is what it feels like, like, actually physically sick.

: 36:37

You know, yes. That's how it starts. But at least for me, my anxiety, I get this real nauseous, like hit suddenly in the stomach. And I know, rationally, you know, I know that now. That's my nervous system going into sorry, out of the rest, digest, everything's good into that fight or flight? Well, my blood just gets out rushes and things like that. And, and I think to add what you said, I, it's all that also, in that particular situation, I don't the feeling of I don't want to let in that situation, my dad down, I don't want to let anyone down. I can't not be helpful, and good, just good overall, you know, I can't not be that I can't be anything less than perfect. And i det Yes, especially in that situation, but in the cafe one as well. And like I said, I, you know, when I was walking down the stroke ward with my speech pathology supervisor, didn't want to let her down and make her think that I was this little student must have been like 19, or 20. I didn't know anything. And so many situations where I think I don't want them to know that I'm not anything less than fine. And I don't want to let them down because that's in again, intolerable to my brain to not be people pleaser. Because that's who I was, like, inside and out. It's so I'm, like, literally now I'm doing this great coaching program. And a big part of it is focused on not being a people pleaser, and standing in my own truth and having my own space and being able to, you know, maybe disappoint people or let people down or just disagree and take my own path. It's very hard to do that. And like I even told a story to her actually, my coach and I said, even just, you know, a year or two ago, if I was out to dinner with my sister, for example, we would both be like, What do you want to eat? I don't really mind. Like you choose now you choose. We could not make a decision to save our lives in case the other person was like God really want that.

Ian Hawkins: 38:48

I wouldn't speak up for themselves.

Unknown Speaker: 38:51

God but like inner turmoil?

Ian Hawkins: 38:53

Yeah, that's a great description. That don't don't want not wanting to let anyone down. I don't know if you've done any data around this, but it's like when you've got that empathy that you tend to like drag other people's stuff out. It's happening from such a young age. And then we talked about getting needs met for me it was like my needs got met when I while their attention not necessarily good attention but that's all you know, as a child was attention was when I would react to family members emotion and pick fights. And then you then go forward into other areas your life and you're doing the same thing as you just want to make sure everyone's okay and make sure and it just repeats and repeats repeats by Have you have you looked into your own experience around where that may have happened? Yes, from that look.

: 39:54

Let's just scoot on. It's not it is very sad. The something I say a lot. And this is I think, oh, did I put it? One of my biggest quotes in my book, actually, which is obviously around parenting with emotional intelligence is that if we want to raise emotionally intelligent kids, we first must become emotionally intelligent parents, or at least work to become more emotionally intelligent ourselves. And so, it's just something that like I said, you know, so few of us were raised in that conscious, aware, intentional, emotionally intelligent culture, many of us had the, you know, suck it up, you're fine Boys Don't Cry, girl, you know, girls should be pretty whatever that is. So it's, you know, takes, you know, this, it takes time and work as in I say, the work, quote, unquote, to really undo a lot of those to kind of unlearn those lessons that we have learned as a kid, we, you know, our parents may not necessarily have ever explicitly sat us down and said, Do not feel XYZ and I don't want to see anger, I don't want you to argue. But man, the way that we were received or the way we experienced, our parents, you know, the look, or the facial expression, you know, the, the, that sort of the, even the withdraw of love, or they go to your room, I don't want to see you that sort of thing. We learn very quickly, what is okay and what's not. And I think so many of us, you know, a little bit to your point, we, the first step is just that awareness of wow, look at how I am now and look at the way I'm showing up in these relationships or this relationship could be with my husband, could be with my kids could be at work, you know, let like, let me turn my eyeballs inward, actually, for a moment and see how look at my patterns. Like for me, I knew I tended to always it's still my default response to shut down and to kind of appease and to agree and to say you're right, you're right, fine, fine, you know, and I that's that's kind of me crumbling, but it's a very safe feeling because the boat stops rocking, and the wind kind of stops and then everything is okay, quote, unquote, again, there's no loud voices, there's no arguing there's no disagreeing and, and we're safe together. It's very, it's very scary to me. Still to a point like less so but it was very scary. If I had a big argument with my husband. I would often I think unconsciously think well, this is it like where am I gonna live? Who's gonna have the kids like my brain goes to that I think that's just part of my underlying anxious personality style isn't that I have those traits of which is which is really it's part of the anxious thinking style is to over exaggerate and catastrophize and things like that. So that's me on paper.

Ian Hawkins: 43:00

Yeah, man. Good to have you back for a second episode I think even things but Are you a big picture thinker?

: 43:10

Um, I'm you know what? That that has come into my capability only in the last two three years before that No.

Ian Hawkins: 43:24

So maybe just unlocking what is more of who you actually are? Yeah,

: 43:28

I think because the like at least definitely my 20s and when I was a speech pathologist that here's the funny thing I was very much in the playing small downsizing, minimizing this is this is just me I'm just Steph. I'm just a speech pathologist, but I was on the Western Sydney team here in Australia for for Autism Spectrum Australia. I was probably the long the the oldest and the longest, I suppose serving therapist, because because I had kids as well. So I went on that leave, I came back and we were met leave, I came back and a lot of a lot of therapists in in that sort of profession. You know, they'll come in as new grads get a bit a few years of experience and move on. I didn't do that. Because of the No no, this is me this is my this is it, basically. And so people would often say why don't you go for that manager position. Why don't you you know, you've been here for so long and everyone else's new grads species OTS Sykes? And I was like, No, that's, that's not me. Like I don't I don't need that paperwork. When really now I realize that I was like, Oh, I could not be anything other than bottom level. Like, I do my work. I see my clients, and then I come home because that again, was really safe. And it wasn't me stepping out of my comfort zone. It was you know, imagine being a manager. I still I mean, I have a team now. That it's very different. You know, having people report To you and have to, you know, you do performance reviews and oh god, that was not me. I didn't have that in me. That was that was been anyway. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 45:10

Yeah. And the reason I ask is it was just I was just sort of joining dots in my head was like, I wonder how much of that. catastrophizing is actually predominantly the big picture visual thinker who, who sees like my daughter describes it as the like, it's there's movies playing, like constantly. And it's like, a wonder how much of that because because I'm more of a sensory thinker. There there is visual elements to it. But below more like it's got to be a more of a feeling thing. But I wonder if the more you see, like, physically close your eyes, and you have that visual, yeah, whether that you have that ability to be that that would make everything closed down. Let's ask.

: 45:58

I think I didn't even let myself get there to see anything other than what I had. And that's funny, because my dad, as I said, builder and a carpenter, he owned his own business from like, forever. He was a teacher as well, very early on, but came over from the UK because there was so many in the 80s, as obviously lots of jobs for teachers and for builders and things like that. So he owned his own business. And yet, I never found that I could be anything other than an employee, like at the entry level. And I think it was just my nervous system again, going, that's not even. Yeah, didn't even consider it. Because this is me, this is safe. And I would look at other people like you and be like, Ooh, look at those people doing that thing written that book, got that podcast, like, Wouldn't it be nice to know, I probably didn't even who I'm like, I would never even been wouldn't be nice. I was just like, wow, look at that.

Ian Hawkins: 46:55

Yeah, right. Yeah. And then again, that self deprecation starts off the back of that.

Unknown Speaker: 47:01

Oh, my God. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 47:02

I've got that. Yeah, we all we all love what you said before speaking up. So then, okay. If it's okay to just dig a bit more into the backstory, you mentioned, speaking up at different times and speaking up for yourself one thing, but was was there times where, like, what I'm getting is a you already hugely emotionally intelligent growing up, which is why it was also a challenge, right? Because you felt things that maybe the average person didn't? Was there times where you felt like you should have been speaking out for people because of that, that lack of ability to go to that safe space that you kind of, then go Oh, I really should have like, is it like, almost like regret or guilt where I should have done that?

: 47:52

Yeah, let me back up a little bit. Because you said, Maybe I was very emotionally intelligent as a kid. What one of I think it's like a first or second. I think it's like the first chapter in my book is called an emotionally unintelligent girl. Because I was very so the difference, the difference? I would say, of course, I had that underlying anxious personality style, but also that I was an empath, and I still am an empath, just meaning I'm more sensitive to the emotions and needs, and thoughts or perceived thoughts, because I don't know what people are thinking, but I'm making them up really? Well. I was, yeah, I really had that overthinker you know, checking thinking the worst, oh, I'm gonna fail, oh, this person will laugh. If I even open my mouth, you know those things. So I would say quite on that end of the spectrum of being an empath. And on the lower in terms of emotional intelligence, so being smart with my emotions, being, you know, having an awareness of my emotions and how that's impacting and driving my, my thoughts, my decisions, my behaviors, 0000 I just was like, floating through life pushed around by the breeze. And like I said, very lucky that I had great parents, and I had great friends and I did well at school. So there's kind of a bit of a different and interesting difference there.

Ian Hawkins: 49:23

Yeah, as a side, I would argue that that highly empathic child is emotionally intelligent, but its circumstances and situations and their lack of ability to speak up is what takes away the perception of emotional intelligence.

: 49:42

Yeah, you know what, I think you hit the nail on the head, I think for so I think so. There's two if we kind of crudely break up emotional intelligence, it's understanding and having an awareness of my own emotions and being able to handle those and adjust my you know, My actions, my decisions on the fly knowing my emotions, but also the other side is knowing that other people have emotions having an awareness of that. Not that I can manage other people's emotions, I can mine, but I can't for them because I can't control anyone except myself. We all know that right? But you can manage yourself or adjust yourself based on how you perceive someone else's feeling. And we obviously know there are people in it like you guys will be thinking someone right now who is so emotionally unintelligent, and has no you talk to them, you probably don't even like talking to them, because they are the to your ear off, they're very dramatic, or it's all about them, or they're rude or they're blunt or uncaring. Right. So those, you know, those people are lacking that other awareness as in, you know, other people's being aware, and being aware of other people and their emotions and what's happening there. So, I think I was super emotionally intelligent about other people. And I took that on and I flexed myself like a, you remember, the little Gumby was at Gumby, the little green man who you could like? Like that was me. But I was not emotionally intelligent about my own emotions, and speaking up about my own emotions, and how I felt I just shove that down. And for the most part, that worked very well for me. And then there were obviously spikes throughout life where it did not work at all. And I crumbled and fainted.

Ian Hawkins: 51:31

Interesting, or I gotta get a little bit we will hear Have you had your appendix out? Or if you had appendicitis? No,

: 51:38

no. Whoo. All right, that down. Stabbing,

Ian Hawkins: 51:42

like when you were talking about that. The weight of it, I think I just got this like stabbing in my right abdomen, like, what is that about? That's a new one for me even. To join the dots of that, maybe I'll listen back. Anyway. So So you're saying yes, you not necessarily within yourself feeling emotionally intelligent. But you had that ability to observe other people and know what was right. For other people, I think that's probably something a lot of the empaths listening will can relate to is being that observer, you understand what other people's needs are, that this falls into the people pleasing thing right? around looking at how all these other people can have their needs met, never once having a thought of, maybe that's what I need to know.

: 52:34

Yeah, it feels it felt it's less so now. But it felt very selfish. To think about what I would want or what my emotions and needs were, it was more. And in a way, like I've had conversations with people, I've said, I should get your opinion on this. That concept of being an empath, and understanding and having an awareness for other people's emotions, and putting them first the other people, people pleasing on the surface that can look very, that can look sort of altruistic, in a way. But underneath, I'm only doing that because no one better find out that I need something or I want something because that's selfish. So I don't want people to think worse of me, I want to I want them to think unkind, and I'm helpful. And I'll do whatever you want, because that's me. And so it's almost like I'm protecting my sense of self. Because if people find out anything else, then that will be I can't deal with it. It's actually very selfish. So that's the way my mind goes. It's that overthinking? So,

Ian Hawkins: 53:46

yeah, I'd say that's the if that's impersonal nutshell, right? We'll do everything we can to distract from having to face our own shit. Even if it means like one of the key things that I see and this was me too, and it's still is a different ways. Volunteering time. Take a busy, right, they're always busy volunteering their time here, there and everywhere. Because if you stay busy, then you now have to worry about as those quiet moments when the overthinking starts and the overwhelm starts and all those different things. It's fascinating and like you talked about working with people on the spectrum, like to me that's like, I don't want to say I my, my eldest is going to an adult autism diagnosis and I'm reading through a lot of stuff go and take a lot of boxes there. I think it's like people who are sort of wired that way. Not to say that you're necessarily autistic but there's there's tendencies of of hypersensitivity to certain things. Which means that when there's that hypersensitivity, when it gets overwhelming, which happens when we're tired, when feeling trapped in a cafe environment, like you're talking about, and there's a lot of other emotions going on and it's all come caving in. That's that's the hardest time to do. Do right? Yeah,

: 55:01

I think those those situations are unfortunately way more common than before. Way more common than they should be. And we've just gotten used to the fact that we were in such busy places all the time, you know, cafes or restaurants or schools, classrooms, workplaces, it's overloading to our nervous system. And we can sometimes think we're fine, you know, I'll just get through this meeting, and then I'll have something to drink. But we're actually not listening to or we, you know, we're not tuning into what our nervous system is telling us, which is very often, you know, we've got that heart racing, we've got that we're in that low level, fight or flight, because we're, our system is overwhelmed with those sensations that are coming in. And sometimes we're not, you know, if you ask OTS who are probably my second favorite, you know, people, I used to joke that I wish I did ot not speech pathology, we always worked so well, so closely together with clients, but they will explain about our eight senses. People, you know, we usually talk, we have five, and we actually have three, I guess, additional ones, and one of them is interoception. And OTS have taught me a lot about that awareness of what is going on within our body, from from the inside, that's interoception. If we think of perception, that's how we're taking in information from our surroundings, with with our five senses. interoception is what what are those sensations and feelings that I can have an awareness of, from within and that can be, it can be emotions, it can also be heart rate, it can be respiration rate, it can be sweating, skin temperature, nausea in the tummy, bathroom needs, things like that. So we have those sensations within. And I think that was again, probably, at least for me, I had like zero out of 100 awareness of my interoceptive sense. I, I mean, I could tell when I need to go to bathroom, but you want to be like the heart racing and the sweaty palms or that feeling of dread, when you have to make that phone call, or you see someone at the grocery store that you really don't want to bump into. I did not have that awareness. I don't. I think unfortunately, we don't teach our kids about that awareness about that sensation. And to be honest, a lot of the time. Beautiful, like good wheeling, teachers will say things like, you don't need to go to the toilet, you should have gone to recess. Or parents will say, Oh, it's an accident. He didn't mean it, when really we're actually very upset. And that really did hurt. We sometimes actually actively, what's the word kind of go against what our interoceptive senses telling us? So I feel like we're on a tangent. But I think that is so important to being emotionally intelligent, because you've got to be able to have a handle on how am I feeling? Where's that coming from? What happened to make me feel like this? And what do I need to do? Do I need just time to sit and let this pass? Do I need to call that person and say, Hey, I really don't think he should have you should have spoken to me like that? Or do I need to set a boundary? You know, those kinds of things. But we can't do that if we don't have that interceptive awareness?

Ian Hawkins: 58:28

Yeah. I don't think it's a tangent. Oh, that's perfect. And, and it makes me think of what my my daughter said the the realization around that diagnosis was masking, and how its people plead for more people pleasing. So we put on a different mask and those of us who have that emotional or not emotional intelligence, I'll rephrase it. Those of us who have that Empath sort of nature we we mask all the time, because it's like forever different things are showing and so we go and I will I'll show up this way for this person or this way for this person. And that's exhausting. takes up so much energy.

: 59:07

You know what that masking when I mean, maybe in my circles because I follow and I a lot of neurodivergent affirming in influencers and people online, but I think a lot of us, we mask, you know, I mean, the moment we step out our front door, we are a little bit less like, you know,

Ian Hawkins: 59:31

clothes on for starters, kind of the Ugg boots and

: 59:36

it's very, it's something really pervasive, something huge and something dangerous, I think for the neurodivergent community, for sure. And if I can quote one of my friends over in Canada, who this is Laura Dorn, and she does a lot of work around supporting ADHD parents and parents of ADHD kids. And one of the pieces of research She quotes a lot is that this is particularly obviously on ADHD kids is it and by the time a child who has ADHD is 12, they will have received 20,000 more negative messages about themselves compared to their neurotypical peers. So 20,000 more negative messages like what's wrong with you? Hurry up? Why so slow? You always getting distracted? Why have you lost your hat again? Where's your homework? You should know this by now. Stop it, you're being ridiculous. Sit down, you're squirming, you know, all of those messages. And it's just something that, yeah, it's

Ian Hawkins: 1:00:41

two things come to mind from that is one is like, how many of those patterns that is repeating generation after generation and like, like what we've both been describing our childhood like we like I don't know about you. But that was me like I was repeating those same things I was inflicting is a harsh word. But that's what it feels like, as a parent, I was waiting these same things onto my children. But then the positive is the moment we start changing. And the moment we create a positive ripple for our children. So this is a question I've been wanting to ask and thank you for the the effortless segue was like how much of the work that you're doing with children is actually work that you're doing with the parents?

: 1:01:25

99% I know that though. A lot of it like a lot of my, I'll be honest, a lot of my messaging and posts and stuff, particularly on social media, because that's where I put out a lot of my content is around, do you, you know, are your kids stressful? They'll be hit. They're challenging behavior. They're big emotions. Like that's what we think is the problem. And that's what parents, that's what gets parents to go. Yes. Oh, my God, she's writing about me like, yes, I've yelled at my kids. Yes. They never listen. Yes, it takes me 20 times to tell them the same thing before they do it. You know, but once we, once we understand that's what it feels like. And then we start to like you said, peel back some of those layers. Then we go, Oh, yeah. Well, that's that's how I was spoken to like that. What isn't this what works if I just keep trying, or if I'm just a little harsher, if I'm just a little harder, if I just have a few more consequences, if I just tell my kids stop it. And if you don't say goodbye to the iPad for a week, like we've all been, you know, using some of those things that we heard as a child to try and get our kids to cooperate, to be respectful to change their behavior. The moment I got, I just got a message. I think it was yesterday that I've screenshot with the parents permission. And I was like, Can we share this because she said, Oh, my God, the moment I she had a very tough day. And I've been I'm trained in something called EFT tapping. So it's a mind body stress reduction technique. It's heavily evidence based, which is great. And she she just did a just a few minutes on tapping to bring down her cortisol and her stress and about her kids not listening. And she said, Steph, I did it in the bathroom. And then I came out, collected myself and she said, it was weird because my kids were noticeably calmer. And then she said my eldest even started tidying up all the stuff in the lounge room. And she said, What is this voodoo? Like? So if you Yeah, if you just work on yourself that you cannot it doesn't make sense. You cannot fathom the ripple effects of when you do quote unquote infill work on yourself and dial up your own emotional intelligence. Holy moly, the ripple effects are insane.

Ian Hawkins: 1:03:51

Oh, goosebumps. That's, that's it. We can literally change the energy in a room.

: 1:04:01

Isn't that liberating? Because we know you can't control anyone other than yourself. You can't. I mean, how do you get your kids to eat or get in the shower? Or do their homework? Like can you force their hands like there's actually no way to get out? Yeah, so thank goodness, that I can control myself because I can do whatever like it's limitless to what I know I mean, we have to learn you have to know we have to to research and find the answers but it's all within me like what a relief. I don't have to go anywhere or do anything for someone else. I can be the change. Anyway,

Ian Hawkins: 1:04:38

I'm getting too excited. Now it's huge. It's a message that I try and hit home as much as possible. So to hear that I'll make sure I cut that one out for a highlight too because it because it is it's like you would see it all the time. local community groups, friends, I'm having this problem with my with my child like what do you recommend? And sometimes I just want to get on there we go. I recommend if I can look at yourself, and you find out what you need to change. Because that's not what I want to

Unknown Speaker: 1:05:05

hear. No, no, no, no, no.

Ian Hawkins: 1:05:08

And like, it wouldn't have been what I wanted to hear either. No,

: 1:05:12

I don't think I wanted to. Imagine if someone had said, Get your act together, look at yourself and your emotions, and then you'll you'll figure out why you're fainting all the time, like no one is going to come and save you. It's up to us to, to just like you said, sometimes we have that moment, that little turning point. It doesn't have to be a giant like lightning hits the ground. If you're listening to this, and you're like, I don't think I have. Maybe it's a collection of moments. Maybe it's a collection of little realizations, listening to episodes just like this, where you go, Oh, maybe there's something you know what, maybe I'll just Google emotionally. Maybe I'll just Google interoception in your you know, what else has he got on his podcast? That's where literally, little tiny building blocks go one on top of the other. And you stand back after a while and go, Whoa, look at all that, that I've built. Look at where I was. And now look, when my mother in law comes around, I'm less stressed. And you know, you'll

Ian Hawkins: 1:06:13

know, I've got a theory on mother in laws, I think is so much like us that they just they hold a mirror back of our own challenges. They got that one pretty early on. I'm like, Ah, damn it. That's why it's so frustrating. Why I'm so just like that. Yeah. But what we get on so well, now the the constant feedback from the external when the internal and to me, that's, that's the big part of the emotional intelligence is to be out, like you've you've pointed out from a scientific perspective, and those eight senses, I'm going to ask you more about that once we jump off. Because it's like being able to have reference points, to be able to go between self and external and know that we can control the best we can control. Like, to me that what you've described there, it's like that's, that's I've never really thought about like that. But it's kind of like the essence of that emotional intelligence. It teaches that is that is oversimplifying it.

: 1:07:27

No, I think it's a really good point that I still have moments in, this might be a good little tip, I don't know if it works for anyone else, I have moments where not always in the moment, like in the heat amount, because it's very hard to do, especially when I always say when emotions are running high. Your logic is low. Like it's kind of going offline, you know, you don't need that part of your brain, you're just acting out of emotions, fight or flight. So it's hard to do in the moment, but most of the time, after a situation, I'm able to kind of like zoom out of the situation, and maybe just replay it or maybe just kind of check in and go wow, look how i xyz shut down. stonewalled. Had those, you know, real negative, spiraling toxic thoughts. Why me? I don't even know, like, every single day, no one gives me a break. It's all like, you know, whatever it is, for me to be able to zoom out and kind of check in with the situation like you're saying, but also with myself and how I was showing up, and what my emotions were doing. And kind of that like, you know, where, where my where was my emotional intelligence, then? Oh, it's great that you can do this in your head with no one watching. Because sometimes, if I'm, you know, I don't want to say embarrassing, but it's confronting, going. Yeah, like, you know, for me, my husband, look how I shut down. Look how I just give in, look how I go round in circles, as he would say, you know, no arguments, like all those things that I do, and it's so uncomfortable. But that's where the growth happens. Like, I have, I'm not saying and I am definitely not an expert in communication and in arguments and emotional intelligence, but I can at least recognize that I've come a very long way to be able to, personally be where I am also, professionally, to be able to, like I'm flying out in a month to speak on a real stage in front of maybe three 400 people about emotional intelligence, and I wouldn't I would have fainted. I would have no I would have said I would have said no from the get go. I wouldn't even let myself get there. Whereas now I know in my bones I'm going to have when I last when I last did a speaking engagement in person that was at a school for parents and educators. And I remember saying to my husband, as I would like left to go there. I was like, I feel like I've got like 15% nerves and anxiety and the rest is excitement. Like I can't wait to share what I know, and just to help people, and it would have been way the other way around, like a couple years ago. So

Ian Hawkins: 1:10:08

that's really cool.

Unknown Speaker: 1:10:09

I guess I'm saying it's worth it. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 1:10:11

And that's that's one of the challenges around emotions a, they can be so similar like the anxiety excitement and it's even when you maybe change the belief the old habit might still sharp and the I just have a conversation with clients morning exactly that I just think identify, just because it feels like that old pattern doesn't mean it's actually anxiety, like, it's, it can be something completely different. You said, you said there. I'm not sure if I'm the best communicator? Well, that the energy that I felt from the moment we jumped on was like, it's a real calm and gentle communication that you do, which is, which is not common from my experience. Like, I feel it in how I'm responding. I'm like, Man, I'm speaking really quiet and chilled and relaxed here. And to me, it's a tale of how you were showing up. So there's more communication than just the words we use, right?

: 1:11:08

Yeah, well, your mirror neurons are probably hard at work, which is, you know, those those connections in our brain that when we see an emotion or a behavior and someone at some subconscious level, or sometimes it's very conscious, we replicate it. And so you'll see people in conversation, they'll, they'll end up both being leaning like this, or they'll both have the same posture, and it means they're in sync. And they kind of, like you said before, I think you said in a woowoo kind of, you know, spiritual way where we're kind of aligned and connecting. But I just, yeah, I find it. I mean, I don't know, is it a? is it just something that happens? Or is it a compliment that, you know, when we're on, we're on a podcast or doing some interview? And then we both kind of seem to flow and have the same energy and tone and things like that? I don't know. Well,

Ian Hawkins: 1:11:55

I would say this, not every guest is as open as you would have been to having that trusting conversation. So I'd say it's a, it's a compliment to the work that you have done that that's how you showed up. Because since not always the case where you talk there about the mirroring body language, that just reminded me of this. So like you said, before, it's dropped in. So I mentioned, I remember learning in a corporate environment that you can help shift the conversation by using that mirroring to your advantage. And remember, I was there with me in my, my second in charge, and a staff member, and they were slouching more and more through the conversation as they got more and more uncomfortable. So I just asked a question. And then I just mirrored like, I just went right down into that full slouch, which was uncomfortable. And um, I know, I need to create a shift here. And it's like, I don't know if you if you do any work that around parents, but it's like we it's almost like mirroring back what's showing up? Yeah, very conscious level to help create a shift.

: 1:13:00

Yeah, definitely. And what what came to mind, as you're saying, that is something called co regulation, which I know it happens to be, you know, amongst any two people in a in an interaction, obviously, I come from the parent child dynamic, when our child is maybe upset or distressed or having a meltdown. We, as parents, if we want to defuse a situation, we can kind of bring in this sense of CO regulation, which means I'm going to moreso then do but more just be what you need in this moment, which is to bring my calm self as much as possible, because that can be hard. But at least if I'm not meeting you, where you're at raising my voice with my facial expression looking, you know, angry, because we know that we can add fuel to the fire, or we can throw water on it. And kind of you know, it's like, it's people who are very good at conflict resolution and calming situations. So we can do that with our kids through co regulating. And it means I'm, I'm not, I don't want to exactly like I said, we don't want to exactly match their facial expression, because that would be, you know, we'd be let's say there's a meltdown or an argument, then that's unhelpful. But we also don't want to have this beautifully calm. It's almost dismissive, and like looking down at them, we don't want to have that kind of aura or approach. So I usually say to parents, you know, in those moments, at least, well, I would say approximate, so have some sense of, Well, what you are going through is really tough and you're not okay with this and you're feeling really upset. So you can see, I guess my tone of voice or my facial expression that I'm to some extent mirroring and which is saying to them, like, some unconsciously, but also verbally, you know, it's okay. I get how you're feeling how you feeling is have weird or ridiculous, I think I'd feel that way too, or that's really understandable. And that makes, you know, oh my god, it's like cold to anyone child or adult to say, to communicate, I see you. And you are seen and you are heard and what you're going through is important. And it's, I value it, it's important to me, I want to hear what you have to say that just diffuses off the get go rather than, you know, the facial expression that's like, oh, I have time for this. You mean ridiculous. It's just a book, you'll find that later. You know how many times I have to tell you, it's not a big deal like that. Just yeah, that's a fuel to the fire kind of.

Ian Hawkins: 1:15:39

Yeah, that's a great description. Because you're not weird. And it's like that it comes back to that behavior talked about before the people pleasing is to be wanting to be included. And so you're validating how they're feeling? And that yeah, that's, that's okay. And then, yeah, and then steps to actually come out the other side of that, like, to me, that must be one of the most rewarding parts of what you do is to your own children through your own journey. But the children that you help with these skills at that age, which like you identified as like, when you first started learning is like, where is this been? What a gift, like to the next generation of these children coming through, it's gonna be amazing.

: 1:16:25

That's, that's probably my biggest thing I want to say is that we might not be able to fathom that this stuff is going to have an impact, but it's an absolute gift, you know, to think about if you're doing it for yourself, and if you have kids, the ripple effects, you can't see them immediately, sometimes can like with, with that parent, I said, you know, she came out, no kids will come, but think maybe 10 510 1520 years down the track, you are actually changing the way that your child may parent one day, and and then the cycle just continues. So we're shifting that and it's, it's well worth it.

Ian Hawkins: 1:17:05

Amazing. Absolutely. It's never work that you do that you ever regret. It's always something that you think why did I not do this sooner?

: 1:17:14

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, what can I just quickly say, we're talking about mirroring before and mirroring in conversations. And I didn't say this when we logged on, because I thought it was silly, but I very rarely wear black. And today, we're wearing black and you've got the black around the Grief Code and all day

Ian Hawkins: 1:17:31

or what? Yeah, even the what backgrounds, lovely the planets, it's like, you're really similar. I noticed that as well. So not silly. Plants. Yeah. Very good. To me, Stefan, I referenced before asked you about being the big picture thinker now that you have unlocked that ability to think bigger, what's the impact that that you want to see from your work going on for 10 2050 years into the future?

: 1:18:02

I want parents to treat kids with respect. And that means that I know that's a big, big statement. And that seems like we don't at the moment. And I don't mean it like that. But you know, there's still a lot of the kids should be seen and not heard kids should not challenge their parents will say no to their parents or why, you know, parents have the answers. And kids need to be you know, taught, and they're an empty cup that needs filling. I just want us to kind of come alongside our kids, it doesn't mean we're going to lose our authority as a parent, or be soft, and the kids will rule the roost. It just means I don't have this power over you. Yes, I'm going to guide you and coach you. And here's a bit of a turning point, I'm going to use discipline, not punishment, to help you learn because A disciple is a student or a learner. And someone who receives discipline is is learning about the world themselves how to behave. It's they're not a recipient of punitive methods and punishment and things like that. So if we can remove all of those unhelpful lessons if we can remove those beliefs, and like I said that you know, that there, unlearn those lessons, and start to see our kids as worthy of our respect. There's a whole there's a whole bill of rights around kids and their rights, children's rights. And I think there's still way too many places in the world that use punishments that tell kids to, you know, sit down, be quiet, don't show me. I don't want to see that, you know, emotions are bad. And I think that if we can shift that we'll have a lot healthier. Teenagers mentally healthy. We don't need to go through the rates of mental health and anxiety and depression. But healthier teenagers than healthy adults, who are then you know, raising the next generation of resilient, kind, empathetic, strong Wrong driven emotionally intelligent kids. So that's what I like to see. Love

Ian Hawkins: 1:20:04

it. And I love that you point out that discipline has been given a bad name. But when you were saying that it's like, you take your own self discipline into that, which is ultimately all you, the child needs is if you are disciplined with your own approach, you'll be able to meet their needs. And contrary to what people think there's like, like you said, lose authority it'll actually gave you it'll gain you more authority than you could have possibly imagined it in a much more loving and caring way.

: 1:20:38

Yes, the, we know, there's, there's oodles of research now that shows that parents who parent their kids without punishment without threats without shaming, and things like that, those who inspire and, and inspire their kids and empower them, they do have the influence over their kids, once they over, but they have the influence with their kids, in those times when they really do need it. Like I want to be able to influence my kids, when the time comes to not do drugs and not you know, go out and do risky things tough, I still need that influence, I'd like to have I want my kids to, to listen and to value what I say and to respect my opinion. And I'm not going to do that if every time they you know, come home, they've stuffed up or made a mistake or done something wrong that I come down like a ton of bricks. So I think yes, discipline, not punishment.

Ian Hawkins: 1:21:35

And I was just thinking about my own journey of 16 and 19 year old and, and we can have the best intentions for them. And we're still gonna have those conversations and we're still gonna have they're still gonna make mistakes, and they're still gonna come home and, and that ability to, to be there in a non judgmental way don't have to necessarily like the behavior but being that safe place for them to, to discuss whatever's going on. Yeah, it's again, that ripple effect. Such a great conversation, Steph, thank you for coming on and sharing. I just want to bring up one thing that you mentioned there, as we finish up, and you said it doesn't have to be this big moment. And yeah, not everyone's had, like, you know, they look at, you know, I haven't had my big moment. But it can be a series of smaller moments. But those smaller moments can have just as bigger impact. So I love that you've really highlighted that because what it shone a light on is that the comparison with what other people are going through is unhealthy to say that, you know, or they got way worse off than me that's like it doesn't, doesn't serve it doesn't help. Yeah, so yeah, that's such a great point for anyone listening to really take on is that you've had moments you can, you can grow so much from that, and you can pass it on to so many other people.

Unknown Speaker: 1:22:58

For sure. I love that.

Ian Hawkins: 1:23:01

Thank you so much for coming on sharing your wisdom and your story. I learned plenty from this one today to appreciate it.

: 1:23:07

Thank you. I appreciate your time and being able to I guess use your platform to be able to waffle on about what I love. So thank you.

Ian Hawkins: 1:23:19

Not waffle at all base. I take your boy because it feels like when we have these conversations you get into yet right. But yeah, that's why I love this platform to be able to give people a space to waffle all day like,

: 1:23:30

Yeah, I'm hugely appreciative.

Ian Hawkins: 1:23:35

You're welcome and especially as well thought out and eloquently put as you did. So thank you. Thanks. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief, let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at a and Hawkins coaching.com. Forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform