Join The Wildman Revolution with Steve X McNamara

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the and Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work. I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. Welcome, everyone, and welcome to this week's guest, Steve X McNamara, Steve. How am I man?

Steve X McNamara 1:09

I'm good, brother. I'm good. And thank you for having me on.

Ian Hawkins 1:13

Welcome. Thanks for coming on. Looking forward to this. So we before we jumped on, we're just talking about like the big moment for you. And you said, Well, there have been a shitload of moments in your life where you've experienced grief. But there was one that really stood out. So tell us a bit about that.

Steve X McNamara 1:29

Yeah, yeah, I lucked out. This is straight into it to mine. It's good. Yeah, like you say there was a number of different I could have given you a like a dozen or more different times and answers and everything. But there's one that really sticks out in my mind and was probably if I if I look at it. And I've done a lot of work around this one. But when I first started looking back at my life at this one moment, I was super embarrassed. I was so ashamed of the actual moment. And how it unfolded was actually through through my 20s in my teens, I was like heavily into drugs, alcohol, worked my ass off. I was a hard worker but I always wanted to go work in the mines in the Pilbara was always the game I was in I was in earthmoving and drainage and I was very good at what I did and never really had the courage to actually properly apply for a job and go over there but this one time I finally connected with the right person over there and I was in I was like, awesome. So what perpetuated in the week leading up to it was the ultimate self sabotage, you could say something I'd finally wanted in my life and I had a lot of things that I was not proud of in my 20s and again ashamed of and that I just wanted to get away I want I knew that going to work in the mines very big thing and I decided to go out with some of the boys on the weekend before I'm like I'm in and gotta go to the mines. Awesome. It's all happened and celebrate. Yes, yes, yes, but I am. Yeah, even though I wasn't really into partying and drinking and drugs that much then when I was 30, then I had drifted away from it a lot, but it was still part of my behaviors. It was still on celebrating their own, I'm getting messed up. So this night, I went and had whatever I was drunk as I was having lines of who knows, like seriously and it was even someone actually pulled me out from in front of a car that I didn't know that I jumped in front of it was pretty hectic like going back on it. But I ended up in hospital. They put me in the ambulance because I was having panic attacks I'm like, couldn't see and my phone was flat. And I couldn't call anyone or anything like that, except the phone numbers I could remember and I was just in hospital not because it was anything wrong with me. It was anxiety, it was just extreme. And I need to get out of the city. I just couldn't be in the streets and two numbers I had my mom and my dad now my mum and dad had been separated for a long time. They weren't living together are living in very different parts of one in North Melbourne, north of Melbourne by a fair bit in the country and the other in sort of north east of Melbourne and it was a bit trippy because they both rocked up at the same time. And I remember this moment so clear now. My mum was still in bed jammas and she was like freaking out coming in and like what's wrong because I didn't even know what I said to him on the phone. I'm like, I'm just sitting in this hospital coming. And then my dad and like I mentioned before the thing he was ready to, to like kick me out the ass and I I still I still believe I've I don't think we ever deserve to be kicked up the ass or physically or anything like that. But I actually probably I think there was a time I needed something to just really, really ground me and I think he was coming in to ground me in his own special way but it didn't happen that way. I let them know everything was alright. And they were well aware that through my 20s I I sort of you know I had battled with addictions and things like that. I I'd expressed it to him. And it was really hard sometimes. And I was in and out of court. Some they knew about something they didn't but this one time, I was just like sitting in my dad's you getting a lift back to where I was living. And he was trying to give me some kind of guidance without, it was doing his best to be patient. But without I could feel his energy. He really wanted to wring my neck. He's like, I think it was a big testing point for him. As a father, then I had tested him a lot. I was just a reflection. I was just like a reflection. I know what he got up to. But it didn't matter. In that moment. I could feel his energy and going back and I just, I'm just then I'm like, if I pass this drug test I've got this week for the minds, I'll still freaking out. So here I am taken a heap of drugs and had a drug test, like two days later. Like if I pass it on never doing this again, I'll never go on into this life again. Um, I can't I can't deal. I just can't do this. And at the time, I was like, I can't do this to my parents anymore. I wasn't going I can't do this to myself. Like that was so embarrassing and shameful. I can't and then

fast forward, I pass a drug test. I'll be honest, I have no idea how I did that. I thought the way I saw it, I like something, something of a higher power. Whatever I declared in that moment, I'm like, I'm not going back to this. It must have been from really from my, my truth and my heart. That's the first time I really felt like now that's it. There's, there's no turning back on this. And yeah, I got into the mines. And then the big change of environment happened. And it wasn't all unicorns and rainbows from there. But that was a huge point in my life. It was massive.

Ian Hawkins 6:37

It's amazing how many people have those moments, and they don't always talk about it, because they think people not going to believe them. And like the amount of stories that I've heard, I'm sure you've got your own podcast, you've heard stories like that, too. Or it's like, it doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense. And yet, you know what happened? And some things are just meant to be right.

Steve X McNamara 6:56

Yeah, I, I wasn't. And I mentioned this before, I wasn't spiritually I wasn't spiritual or anything there. But I something was telling me that I was being looked after. Yeah, like for this one point. And I had these moments throughout my 20s. Like, there was a court case where I went to that no one knew about except two people for 12 months. And I could have landed me in jail for a long time. I had a moment like that. Right. At the end of the hearing, the judge said some stuff out of his mouth, like supporting me, and like, where did that come from? Like, and I'm like, shit on being so looked after here, because the prosecutor recommended four and a half years in jail. So yeah, so I've I had these moments, but this one time, I really declared it. I'm like, That's it. I know, this is gonna be tough and hard. But I've been gifted this moment. And

Ian Hawkins 7:45

yeah, yeah. So you mentioned like not wanting to let your parents down. But on top of that, or aside from that, why do you think that moment in particular, was the moment that had you going? We need to change now?

Steve X McNamara 8:01

No, I think because for even since my teens, I used to self sabotage when something was really good for me really majorly like this. And generally, it would lead to alcohol, drugs and violence. And I was so aware of this by now. And I'm like, here I am. 30 years old. And I'm like, it was a point where it's like, wasn't grow up, Steve. It was like, Hey, man, you're like really good at what you do. You're super talented. You're awesome. Like, I was always the best in my my game or field. I was very, very well known and in demand. But the problem I had was I was this angry, drug, alcohol, whatever label you want to put it on. Like, that wasn't me, though. I knew that. And, and again, I wouldn't admit that at the time I, in my healing journey, I've come to understand that that was what deep down I was like, I knew that that was my point where I was committing to myself to be better. But I, I use the motivation, even though it was away from I didn't want to make my parents shame. Be ashamed of me, or I want to make him proud. And as you would know, that's not really a long term motivator. But at the time, I needed that. That was my rocket fuel at the time. And then then year, years down the track, I really got into the reflection of self and that was actually okay.

Ian Hawkins 9:16

Yeah. And I'm curious, specifically, around self around self sabotage, because that's a big one for so many people. So what did you learn about self sabotaging through that journey? I'm sure what I don't know at that. At that time. You might not have identified with it being self sabotage, but how the label was? Yeah. So how did you come to learn that and how did you come to start finding the tools and the processes to actually overcome that?

Steve X McNamara 9:45

Yeah, well, that's an interesting one that the tools in the process the first one and I still I knew, I had a tool that I had in my 20s and even my teens is when I stuff up, whether it's drunk and disorderly or getting in fights Whatever, abusing police, whatever it was, I go away to the bush. Because I knew when I went away to the bush and did, I'm like, Ah, I'm not in that environment. So I knew it was a simple form of me knowing my environment that I put myself in, I knew all about that back in the day. And that was my go to now I use it as type of escapism. But as I got later in my 20s, it helped me sort of, the more I went away to the bush, my fishing my adventuring, my, my hiking, and all the things I used to do, I used to do that more and more, notice how I had a massive impact on the length of time. I could actually have my life in order. The more I did that, but then every now and then my, my, again, I didn't give it the level of self sabotage because I never even learned about what that even was like to even my mid 30s the language around all these things. But what I would do I go, Okay, I haven't been out for a month I've been a good boy. All right, let's catch up with the boys. I can go a bit harder this night. And that was a self sabotage pattern, because I was doing really well. But then it was like, my, my stuff UPS would get more severe, or more intense, or whatever it was, then it's like the next time I'll do three months.

Ian Hawkins: 11:14

Isn't that just classic behavior? Like yeah, just oh, well, I can stop anytime I want. You just go. Alright, we're going to unload.

Steve X McNamara: 11:24

And it was the end i If you were to measure my 20s, especially the stuff, ARBs were, I would go harder, I would drink harder, I would do more drugs. And then I generally end up fighting and like not give us stuff. And it was the same how I played my footy and everything. The later I got in my 20s. The more I realized the more of a break I had in my environment, or did the things I loved and valued. I come back in the sabotage was more intense, it was worse. So this time and moment I mentioned at the start of the podcast, that's why this was such a pivotal time for me because I really gave myself a little choice at the time. I'm like, I'm going from Melbourne, to the Pilbara, and now back Western Australia. A month at a time I get drug tested, I get breath out all these things. There was these limitations that a lot of people don't like but for me, I saw that I knew they were going to serve me now. The one thing that I did, I I still even when I went over there, I worked for seven weeks straight. I was very tired, rundown burnout, feeling unhealthy, but really happy. I was earning good money. I went back for one weekend. And I drank again, even though I committed and declared. And I didn't enjoy it. I was almost like this test. After that I literally bought a heap of stuff from Victoria to the Pilbara. I knew my environment changed, the fishing was epic up there, the exploring was amazing. It was actually something that could align to my values. And it was a huge distraction. And there was a lot of escape. But I just, I just moved up there. I was living on campus, I was working whatever else I wanted and threw myself into my work, which created more things down the track. But for that period, while it was that defining moment, that massive change in the environment, that that was the key.

Ian Hawkins: 13:19

So part of the removing yourself from self sabotage was having like boundaries, or limitations as you put them. Yep, finding something that actually did align and filled you up. Now, was it as simple as that? Or were they then Pro or was

Steve X McNamara: 13:37

it was hard. I could admit this now I wouldn't at the time and I wouldn't for many years even when I got into like personal growth and talking about my journey and that I wouldn't but I look back now and it was bloody hard because what I did is I was good at my job and I got over there and I lost my role of significance like running jobs in that for six months there was this window where I was actually just sitting on a machine getting told what to do. I felt so restricted. It was really hard here I was starting to train my body in the gym. And I was not very healthy without I never really trained in the gym through my 20s and mostly on my body My body cocked up but are starting to that was a tough process. I had all these cravings and even late in my 20s I couldn't eat fruit and veg for a few years because of the amount of drugs and alcohol so my body wasn't functioning properly. So that first six weeks especially with six months was really hard. But I stuck at it. I just stuck at it that was hard and then made a couple of connections up there got into a role that I really liked where my significance was being met and my skill was being utilized and then from there I just threw myself into work now again that created a lot more problems down the track. Because I was working like 1214 hours a day out to impress again. This is how good I am. was a big part of me love that like loved it and is part of I mean, it's still like, if there was an opportunity that really, really aligned, I'd probably do something like that, again, even if I could have my family there and all the things is amazing up there. Yeah. But again, it was like, it was tough to transition into that and work then became my addiction work earning a lot more money, the significance that came with my role, I had major anger problems. They didn't go anywhere. They I just suppressed them. And it actually came out in a different way when I was in this job. And I got a big reputation, two things, significance amount, because I was epic at what I did, I got the big jobs, I looked after the big crews and all that sort of stuff. But at the same time, I had a reputation as like, just just be gentle around him behind, don't cross him. Don't mess with him, because he will lose his ship. And that went on for years. So I had that double reputation. Again, looking back, I didn't like the anger part. But again, it was a catalyst.

Ian Hawkins: 15:56

Yet, um, I want to come back to the anger because that's something that definitely resonates with me as well in my journey. Tell me, you've identified the self sabotage. You've found different things that work. Is there some? Is there something like a simple process? Because not everyone? As we've talked about before, when you and I have chatted, not everyone's got the capacity to escape the city even though they probably need it. Yeah, what some simple processes they can use in their day to day to recognize that they are because as you mentioned, so often when we're in amongst it, we don't we don't notice it. How do you recognize we are self sabotaging? And then how do we then steer ourselves to a new path?

Steve X McNamara: 16:39

Yeah, this is good. Like right now. Like it comes up for me right now like is day to day stuff sometimes where it's like, oh, I think a simple one is like, I'll give you a tangible example. My health, I'm fit and strong. I look after my body. I've got all my practices, I train a lot. I do breath work and body work. And Emotionally, I so much of that. Because my health is my so so important. So a tangible example to talk about. It'd be like, okay, cool. I've been training and healthy and everything, but I'll have some lemonade. And I do I love lemonade or chocolate. Now, I'll go and have that and feel like crap the next day. Now, that's if I don't catch it. I'll go on craving because I've been training so hard and the sugars or whatever. It might sound simple, but I'll feel crap the next day. And it's all that I used to grab that. It's like, okay, cool. I have health goals. I'm very goal orientated. That works really well. For me. I think it's the way I look at it. It's like that. accomplishing the goals give that tangible target with my health goals. I'm like, Okay, I've got to be emotionally connected to that for me to catch the self sabotage. It's like, okay, I will having all that chocolate at 10 o'clock at night? And is that really in alignment with that, and I can catch it now because I put so much energy and focus into my goals. And that helps me just pause and reflect now, does it mean I don't eat the chocolate? No, but I've paused and caught it. And that's that's my, that breaks apart and just catching it? Yeah, I mean, it's simple one.

Ian Hawkins: 18:06

Yeah. And even the intention you placed behind it, right? Like, if it's like, if it's an avoidance or a desperate need, as opposed to, I'm actually just going to make a conscious choice that I know, this may have some impacts, but I'm gonna have it anyway. Because I really enjoy it. I've got another year. But there have been different times where when you're on the growth journey where you're like, man, I've just removed all the joy from my life trying to be this perfect person, maybe I'll just have a chocolate bar, maybe always have a beer, maybe I'll just do whatever. So I can enjoy life. Crazy. actly.

Steve X McNamara: 18:37

Yeah, it's interesting that in self sabotage shows up in so many things. And a lot of the time we don't recognize it till after as well. And I think that's a great if you get good at reflecting. If you have like practices or something like that, like at the end of the day, or at the end of the week, we actually just go over your weak a little bit without being too rigid, that can help you pick up on some of the self sabotage patterns that you might have been unconscious to at the time. I'm massive on my practices intention at the start of the day with everything else. And just even if it's a reflection at the end of the day for a minute or two, like how how was I feeling today? And like, how was I in relation to the three priorities are hard things like that. They're simple. They're really simple to implement, and it just allows you to catch that stuff and then and then decide to be a little bit better.

Ian Hawkins: 19:22

Yeah, that's the key, isn't it? Like, you start off making changes, and you suddenly see the potential to be somewhere further down the track. And there's that impatience and that desire to run from zero to 100. It's like yeah, and I just just keep making incremental changes that's that's where the real sustainable change comes.

Steve X McNamara: 19:45

Yeah, no, exactly. And that's the I think a lot of people what I see anyway clients and even like people in generally, it's all nothing's, it's like, all right, and I've caught the self sabotage or the behaviors are working. All right, I'm gonna go 100 mile an hour. In that other direction, and they wonder why they can't make a sustainable or make a work because it's it doesn't work that way. For some people it does. But it's like, first it's a choice and it's like be okay to go through the process step by step, incremental changes, let them compound. That's how you get long lasting results.

Ian Hawkins: 20:17

Love that. Now, Steve, I want to go back to you talked about your dad. And and this is where I resonated the anger. And you said that when he came to the hospital like he was going to ground you in his way, which, which is like probably a reflection of how the times were back then. But for me, I always reflect on Well, what what would the upbringing have been like, for our dads as well, given? They would have been coming out of war and all sorts of really challenging time. So are these conversations you've had with your dad around? Like your own anger? His stuff? Like what? How would you reflect conversations?

Steve X McNamara: 20:58

No. And it's a fascinating relationship I've got with my dad. And I've done a lot of started my journey healing a lot around that because I had very similar anger patterning, you could say or behaviors. I was very different in relationships. But it showed up a lot. He had a lot of anger at things and stuff like that. But recently, the way I could probably best describe this as in a lot of the trauma healing that I've done recently, it came up that here I was deep down searching for these conversations, I need to sit down with my dad, I need to hear these words I need to talk to him. Were in fact, this, the process I was on it allowed me to see from afar, all the great things my dad was doing and how he communicated in his own way, and how how we do actually have an understanding and letting go that attachment ago are we going to sit down and talk about this. Now, it may come one day, but I'm actually not searching for that conversation where we get on the same page or anything like that. Now, my dad is He's amazing. He's taught me all the skills that I know I need, like the bush stuff, like the fishing stuff, all these things that are relevant even how to be a really good dad in in the pockets of his time away from his work. He was present with me all the time. And in his own my understanding of how he shows love or appreciation and all that a communications not words, because for so long, I was wanting him to understand me in my way. But soon as I got that understanding, you see how he he takes action. I think a lot of men are like this, too, that the actions do speak louder than words. My dad is totally like that he's so committed, dedicated to his friends, his family to a point. That's his own thing, all that but the understanding that I've had recently, especially around that again, I'm like, I don't even think I need to talk about this. Even when I left the mines, he how he started a phone call, I'd made it in his eyes, I go to the mines, it wasn't stuffing up anymore, I was making good money, I had all the toys, every phone call after I left the mines, like you make money doing that crappy dawn. And then then there was no conversations about I spoke my truth around it. And then there was an understanding. I will. That's how that's how we were all. And I'm sure a lot of listeners, men out there probably have interesting or similar relationships with their dads.

Ian Hawkins: 23:25

Yeah, 100% made so much golden that I walked that same path externally, you wanting this, that and the other. Part of me assigning blame, I don't know if that resonates with you. Because you want to have a reason why you went and did all the things that you did, instead of actually taking that time of self reflection and go, How can I come at this differently? Because ultimately, that's all we can control is actually doing exactly what you described. Yeah, recognizing all of the good because I had same conversation with me around my dad had all those different frustrations. And it's like, actually, he was awesome. And he did this. And he did that. And he provided this for me. And why would an awesome role model in this area and exactly what you described action. And I know we've talked about this a bit as well. It's like, bringing men back to that action. That's in all of us to actually have we've in a way grown grown soft, getting back to actually standing up and taking the action that needs to be happening needs to be made. That we need to make happen and and then finding the tools to to actually go and do it.

Steve X McNamara: 24:36

Yeah. And it's I think, like you mentioned before, like generations before us were brought up differently generations before that were brought up differently. I don't know the you could call it the war on men and masculinity, whatever you want to call it like with wars and all these sorts of things. There's been a societal conditioning that the previous generations have gone through which has been hardcore, and it's men like us now that are awake to this sort of stuff. And having an awareness of that to our allowed me to have so much more compassion for, say, my dad and his generation and the generation before. And having that compassion helped me be I still think there is an element where we need to judge things to make a choice or a decision or give it meaning. But it's allow me to not judge it and hold on to that judgment to go well, you were this or you weren't this for me or because like he's he's thing was, and there's a lot of us go to work to provide the money, work my ass off, be dedicated, committed to my boss to my company. And he had lots of let downs with that and work his ass off for a long time. But what did it come at the impact of relationship with my mom, definitely. A relationship with my youngest brother, there's not really a good one there. And even that period was interesting. And but for me personally, being the oldest in the family and reflecting like, again, all the stuff that I see is relevant as a man of being grounded, being a bit rough around the edges in a healthy way. Providing or presiding over my kingdom. That's the way I look at it, because I truly resonate with all demand should be the only provider and that sort of rubbish. But there is an element where it's healthy for us to provide all them things that my dad was a great example. In there, I'm like, Yeah, that's reflected in me. Definitely. And I'll tell you what, without the bush skills and the adventure skills, I actually don't know that's like, a huge part of me. And I got that from my model that from my dad.

Ian Hawkins: 26:24

Yeah, awesome. Yeah. In build need to protect and provide, right. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. In a way, you mentioned like the, you know, the, the toxic language that we've been taught, and the different patterns and conditioning. I reckon so many men don't even know how they're supposed to act anymore. Like, this is urge for them to want to step into their strength, but then the like, although that might offend someone that might upset someone. It's like, man, we are just too fucking offended these days, like, so how do we, from your perspective, help men to step into their power and strength, and not be at the mercy of someone else's agenda and ideas of who they should be as a man?

Steve X McNamara: 27:12

Well, I think the first thing we've got to show them like, and I think this is they need, they need actual models of men. I remember reading a book a few years ago from a guy called Garrett white. And he just said in there, he went on this mission to try and I don't resonate with a guy, but I loved his story, and his teachings in that on my ear. But the story how he shared he knew he'd fucked up his life and had all these things that weren't working. And he's like, Alright, I'm gonna go get a mentor, one mentor, that's got all this shit sorted, and he couldn't find anyone, any courses. Any men. No, he goes, there was parts. And here he goes, who we meant to model as men. He goes, there's no one who can teach me to be a man, that resonated with me, because you look at society right now in the politicians, sports people. What TV celebrities and all this that we've been conditioned with, and all the agendas that are play, it's really hard for a man to to go, where do I look? Where do I start? What do I do at the moment? Now there's change coming with this right now. But men need models of men that we probably didn't have a lot of men growing up, they modeled their mum's energy. Because their dad was always at work and go back to the previous generations with war and stuff. They model their mums energy, because the mom had to, oh, wait, women back in the workforce and all this sort of stuff. So a lot of the men in this generation have been conditioned to model their mom's energy on how to be a man which is so distorted, no taking away from the superhero moms, of course, versus Yeah. So that's, that's one of the things but I think, no matter what, if a man's not happy, he's feeling unfulfilled, or is feeling a bit stuck on last. He's just got to say, well, this is I'm here for more. Until for more, I deserve more what that is, I don't know. But I'm going to, I'm going to take responsibility for every thing in my reality right now. And I'm going to do something about it.

Ian Hawkins: 29:11

Yeah, and you don't have to wait for this big moment of having an epiphany or from in my mind, you've had that moment, like everyone's had a moment. It's like, how much bigger a moment are you waiting for before before you'll actually take the action?

Steve X McNamara: 29:27

It's generally pain. US you it's generally the pain that that motivates the man, even though it's a short term motivator, motivates the man to go Holy shit, whether it's a loss of a job, a loss of relationship, or a loss of several relationships, or kids don't talk to him or parents die or whatever's going on. They're like, holy shit. But again, like you say, it doesn't have to be that way. Like, where's the motivated in the things that light us up? Yeah, that's the key.

Ian Hawkins: 29:56

Yeah, and the pain. For most people. It's showing up Physical pain and it's the dog on the nail, right? He's winded enough to whinge but not injured enough to do anything about it. And yes, for me, it was my back. It went and it went in and went, and I'm just tolerated for years, not sleeping less and stuff until it went completely when why I'm lying on the ground going, I need to be somewhere now I gotta get a child to childcare, I've got to get to work or do all this and I can't move. It's usually that it's like, wow, man, we're stubborn boss. It's only like, why do we have to wait for that? So how? What's your best tip on getting men to recognize that the pain is already there, and a catalyst for them to actually start taking that action?

Steve X McNamara: 30:44

Again, what it's probably a couple of answers, I could give this the way I if a man comes to me now. And they've got that realization that they're, they're not where they want to be. Or stuffs not working, or they're not happy, or whatever it is, when they come to me. I just remind them that they've taken the first step men are we've got awareness, this is the thing like, men are not stupid, like we pretend to be even if we're not awake to certain things know, we know inside when something's not right. We know. Now, I don't know any man and most men won't admit that. We know. It's the catalyst is going okay. I know something's not right. And I'm going to have the courage to be vulnerable to at least let someone know. That's that's the catalyst right there. As soon as you are witnessed in this, that then especially like I say, men have reached out to me, they've got no fucking choice but to stick to something. I'm either gonna give them a solid solid bit of guidance on their way out the door, or I'm going to give him some really, really strong accountability to hold to that first inkling that they know something's not there. Yeah, I seriously think that men we have the awareness, we do.

Ian Hawkins: 32:02

Being able to act on it is the key, like you said earlier action,

Steve X McNamara: 32:06

action, we're built to freakin take action on how masculine we are. And without going into the distorted polarity stuff like we are built to take action. And that action can be meditating that action can be sitting out in the garden. action can be laying on the couch, just chillin, but we have to be intentional. We have to intentionally take action, because that's what we're built to do if we don't do that. And we're avoiding taking the action that's aligned and stuff. That's when there's problems.

Ian Hawkins: 32:38

Yeah, 100% that you mentioned suppressed anger. Again, that was a big one for me, I can recognize the moment from as a team where I just made a decision to roll over and no longer express my anger and of course what happens is it bubbles out in different ways. So you mentioned work for me it was more sporting field and as a parent, they were they were to motivators particularly as a parent who want to change and to learn to not suppress initially I went into this place of you know, peace and calm and all these different things. But that's just another version of suppression it's another pushing it down and and then finding real ways to be able to do that so so how do you now channel that anger to help yourself to be able to move through it in a healthy way which that way doesn't flow forth to your family and other people in your world?

Steve X McNamara: 33:30

Oh, handle all my friends and family? No, I'm very openly expressed. Now that you know why was a lot of projection in the past projection of anger and everything and was actually when I was going through a lot of NLP stuff. And they got a model they're showing the range of emotions and the anger is like the first one to go to and what resonated with me was like, it'll fight to keep the other suppressed. And I've been angry and openly express with my anger all my life, reputation in sport, especially sport, then my job around even even in relationships was where I tried to calm it and I couldn't because it was just bottled up shit and then the reflections were too strong. But having that that understanding like okay, if anger is something that's keeping them other ones, no, no, I need to feel them or Wow, okay, or somehow I've got to have a healthy outlet or healthy way to navigate this. I think I think a misconception out there is sports a healthy outlet for anger. Well, partially it can be at all, but you need other stuff to go with that. You can't just go and take it out in the gym. You actually what I was doing was being hard on my body. All right, I'm gonna have that outlet in the gym like ah, and underneath it was like, fuck you, Steve. You're not good enough. Like I see a lot of men do that. But we're having that understanding. So cognitively having the understanding that if anger was doing that, that actually anger is my superpower. Whoa, when I when I heard that from someone, I don't know if I read it. I'm like, Oh, what if anger is my superpower? I just got to do Learn to love my young guy at the same time is starting to feel deeper and doing the work and doing healing and trauma healing and things like that. If anger is my superpower, I'm like, I'm fucking Superman because I can tap in a hangar like that. So some of the processes I do now number one is pause and I express again all my friends that my wedding a bunch of speeches that go if you know, Steve, Well, he's very openly express you don't have to guess what's going on in his head. Even if he's angry. And it's like I've got this saying Better out than in my grandma used to teach me that. Don't think she had the same intent to teach it but what I feel that it is like, you hold on to anger, you can pause, you can feel it, you can recognize it. That's what I do. But in a healthy way, what I do in a relationship, chi, I'm super triggered right now. I need a break. I need to go out and do my thing. Now that takes courage. I'm not suppressing the anger. It's it's a go to it's super simple. It took time in the relationship where she wasn't taking it personally. But we've got a good understanding now that this is something that works for me. I got a massive boxing bag in the in the garage and a baseball bat. Now, I didn't get that for me. I've got a chain. So if there's something I can't put words to because anger is very chaotic. You generally don't know what you're angry about. Really. It's not. It's not the missus left the kitchen dirty. It's not the kids been annoying. It's something deep down that's been reflected that's just bubbled up at that specific time. So I'm like, All right, baseball bat in the garage. I'm just going to feel this shit. Scream Into a pillow. These These might sound action. It's just go do something with that energy right now. Don't try and sit and fucking quiet minute. No, Mo with me. It's so simple. It's alright, I might go for a ride. It doesn't work for me to go to the beach. It doesn't work for me to to just sit still. I won't do breath work straightaway. I'm a huge, huge proponent of breath, work on my facilitative practice and all that. But I won't go straight into breath work, I'll probably blow my brain out. But I've got to go do something that's focusing on feeling this anger, I might get out of journal afterwards, I might grab my phone afterwards and speak some words that don't mean anything and just get it out. Programs and coaches are pretty good for this shit like that. Sometimes. I know with my coaches and mentors, they're like, Just say anything, whatever. If you get triggered or angry or something comes up, just load my messenger up, load it up. I'm not going to give you feedback. Just spit it out. Yeah, it's a great tool.

Ian Hawkins: 37:46

I'm laughing because exactly what I need to my coaches today.

Steve X McNamara: 37:50

My clients take ages and they wonder why I keep saying they won't feed back. But lo My Messenger app, I don't care what you say. I don't care how deep dark, crazy terrifying. Just do it. Because when we we allow that anger, we give it something. We're doing something with it, we can shift to a point where it's like, okay, oh, wow, how many times I remember as a kid after I had my my anger outlet and all that and I'd have a huge cry. And then everything would chill and have this big release. It's no different with anger. You have this release, and then you can go okay. I know what this might be. Let's get to work on it. I have no idea what this is. I need some insight. I need to actually be witnessing this. I need to go to an expert or an authority and this or something like that coach, mentor, healer, therapist, whatever that is. Yeah. And then I'll get into my body work as well. Absolutely.

Ian Hawkins: 38:45

Yeah. Awesome. Great answer. Thank you. If we just go back there to that, that moment, you see your parents come in, like at the time, like what was that experience? Like? You mentioned guilt shame. Can we dig a bit deeper there around? Like, was there a fear knowing your parents were coming? Was there was there more? Well, this is what it has to be. How did that play out in the moment?

Steve X McNamara: 39:14

Who I think at the moment I actually had a lot of relief in the moment because I was I was having crazy anxiety and everything like oh my god, my phone's not working. I'm lost in the city. I think I did this. I don't know what happened here and don't know what's going on. I'm going to knock it my jaw I had so it was so overwhelming. And my body was just reacting full Firefly the hospital didn't want me there. I was literally in the foyer. I just felt safe there. So firstly, it was relief. Then it was like What have I done? Oh my god. Then it shifted massively to Yeah, guilt and shame but it was probably like, I knew in that moment I go back to it. I knew I'm like I can't keep doing this shit. This is the worst ever like this is As I just kept on and it was a lot of fear, I was a lot of fear around. What did my parents actually want to do with me? And like, did they want to disown me there was stuff like that coming up as like. And there was also questioning like, how good am I parents? Holy shit. It was this range of Yeah, it was this big range of up and downs and up and downs, I had a lot of anger come up towards myself. But again, I think they're, I think the anxiety or whatever it was, I actually think the guilt and shame was the overwhelming one. Yeah. The I didn't want to talk to him. I even think I said, I even think I told him, I didn't want to talk about it. Yeah, to cover because I just was not. Yeah. You just didn't want to open up to them, then. I'm pretty sure. It was it was silence all the way.

Ian Hawkins: 40:55

It's embarrassment, isn't it? I think back to those times, I've had to have those moments myself. And it's like, exactly what you described wake up in the morning. I gotta be honest, not in the hospital. But I did wake up at a few houses that I walked did wonder how I got there. But that was my wallet, like, and then you go out? What did I do? Because you know that it was stuff that wasn't good. And then you try and recall and you've got these massive black holes where you just can't remember. And it's that I reckon it's the unknown that just causes so much of it. And then the reality of the things that you do remember and exactly the guilt, the shame, the embarrassment, all those different things. So was there residual impact of of those feelings, then going forward then for the immediate future?

Steve X McNamara: 41:47

Well, the regional first and foremost, I use it as a fire that that situation, I really use it to drive and motivate me and again, knowing what I know now was a short term motivator, but it worked. It was like that, I didn't want to feel that again. I actually think this is really relevant for for men listening or even people listening is like, when we use the short term motivators of other denture or heavier emotions and stuff like that. It's actually part of the suppression model, as well as I use them as that supercharged but as soon as you don't feel anything, all they're done, they're gone. But the residual from this, they would start popping up again, they definitely would, and whether it was flashbacks or things that happened in my 20s, where mine wasn't waking up in people's houses. What I'd done one was Wednesday, afternoon, police knocking on my door, and I had no idea why and telling my mom that I'd done something on the weekend that I couldn't remember that. So I had lots of stuff start to come up and that I lost, I lost my bit best mate in my early 20s, which was a huge time in my life in a car accident, and I started to get the suppressed emotion start to come up for that. Every time I'd go back to that incident moment when I sabotage before I was coming in the mind. It was this link to all these different times where I felt guilty. On heard was a big one. But yeah, the residual and it wasn't really. And I think this is the it wasn't really I lost another really good mate in the mines to suicide. They found him in the Dongha. And that was actually pivotal of when I woke up. But I remember that there too, because leading up to when he committed suicide, I was this emotional wreck. Every couple of days, I had to drive off site and just bawl my eyes, I had no idea. And this was happening repeatedly for years got worse and worse until I lost my mate to suicide. That was two years before I left the mines. But as soon as I that was another point. I'm like, Holy shit, that was a slap in the face. And I asked the question, What am I on the planet for as soon as I did that, it was highly emotional. That was like the next part of like me, all the residual feelings are suppressed emotions, I actually started to be okay to start to go alright. I think there's something's wrong with me. This isn't normal, like actually crying a lot and all this sort of thing. And then I'm like, we got to do something about this. So

Ian Hawkins: 44:10

so what I know of grief is that obviously grieving the moment, it's also all of the tidal wave of or tsunami of everything that comes up possibly linked to that. So can you draw a bridge between losing your best mate there and then having another mate like, in the mind, like,

Steve X McNamara: 44:28

I was like, it was like, a big Yeah, a bridge is probably a good visual that I can have from from there, too. There were there was a lot where I didn't deal with at the time from my early 20s From my best mate. I tried to talk about it, but I hit the alcohol harder. I hit the drugs harder. And again, I wasn't hurt because I was not. There was no respect, right? No self respect and that sort of thing. But that always coming up in tidal waves. Totally. And I think the thing of asking what I asked the question, I literally stood in a paddock in the pool before spinifex like I was in shock of losing my mate that I can find it in to help me navigate the mining life. Great guy, all this I was in shock about that. And all of a sudden I started feeling all these things. It was like the turning of the loop. And it wasn't closed off. It was like, You got to you got to feel all this stuff, you've got a lot of stuff that's coming up now. And it was part of you could say that next step was part of a grieving process. And I started to allow myself to feel I think that's what it was. Now I wouldn't at the time saying, Yeah, I'm grieving now or anytime admit to that. But if I look back, definitely,

Ian Hawkins: 45:39

yeah. Did was a part of you that felt guilty or responsible given this was someone who'd carried so much of your load and now, like, then you go, Oh, wow. And he wasn't coping with his own stuff.

Steve X McNamara: 45:53

I'll tell you, I can I can talk to you about this. And I can talk to people about this. It's not something I've spoken about a lot. And I think it'd be relevant for this the night before. I'm very in tune with my energy. I do a lot of stuff. Now. There's rah rah rah and like, Let's get them in, out and about, but I'm very in tune with my energy. And I was actually starting to wake up to this then, the night that my mate committed suicide. I just had this overwhelming urge that I needed to talk to him. Oh, wow. It was It was intense. And I didn't because I didn't understand what this urge was on my mind, like when you need to talk you don't want to bother him tonight. But deep down and then the next day when I found out I was going to like holy shit. You should have you could have made you could have so I had massive amounts of guilt come up. I really did. And I think the difference then with that guilt and that shame, I was able to catch that and go, Hey, but to breathe prefer this one my like, there's some things that we take as a great dude are the boys on the side. It was It was devastating for a lot of the men and all that sort of stuff. And again, it was a huge catalyst for me. And I think in a good way. Not that I wanted to call that in or anything but as a catalyst for me to go. Alright, this is the next step happening here. Dude, there's something deeper that you're ready to commit to or honoring or as a calling happening now. And that that got ignited, then two took me still two years to leave the mines. But that was pivotal as well.

Ian Hawkins: 47:23

Yeah. For me, it's like these these moments come and there are times down the track. We like there was so much positive that came out of that. And then going through the process of trying to make sense of that and actually be okay with that. Because it's like how can something so traumatic? Brain positive? That's more guilt on top of that, right? So so how did you navigate that part of it given that? Well, it did set you on this journey. But at some point down the track, you face that reality of actually, it's been one of the best things that's happened in my life. Yeah, well,

Steve X McNamara: 48:01

it's one thing that came from it, it brought me closer to my boss because that was his best mate as well. And my boss like run a massive company, I resonated with him. Well, we already got along really well. But that brought us closer together. We were having conversations about life. And although he had some heart unhealthy aspects, it was really good to connect with a man on a deeper level. We had a real resonance that helped me a lot there. And it wasn't guidance wasn't do this, do that or this is going to help it was just two men unpacking their grief in our own knockabout boy kind of way, you could say, and that helped a lot. But it wasn't until I actually committed to a men's program that I actually was like this timing of like, I knew my time was done in the mines, there was a mining downturn where all the boys were put off work except myself. And there was a couple of offers coming my way to keep me working because they knew what they thought they knew as soon as I started work, now the company go ball. But I was done in the mines. And I actually turned back a couple of higher paying, you could say better jobs at the time and at the same time committed to Alright, if I'm not going to mind, what am I gonna do? I don't want to dig holes anymore. I don't want to run crews anymore. I just need a break. I can't be happy by myself. Why would I want to be around people? Hello, I'm just gonna go and renovate an apartment, but I committed to a men's program. And in that program, there was a retreat six months later, but in the process that men's program, there was a task we had to do. Now I was not a big fan of social media at the time. Go back to 2013 1415 I've got like pictures of me holding fish and snakes. That's all I had the courage to put on social media.

Ian Hawkins: 49:41

By the way, yeah, well, Georgie komische

Steve X McNamara: 49:44

comment on the footy. Yeah, like it was something that's all but this program had a task where we had to not only show up in the group every day, then share, answer some questions and share a selfie in the group. With a bunch of other men, we had to do videos on Facebook, talking about shit. Now, this was huge for me. Now I remember the first one in the mind's eye. When I commit to something, especially back then I'm like, all in, like, I've got to do this and I have so much stuff coming up, oh my god, I'm going to share something on social media. I'm going to share a video on I've committed to bettering myself. For for me for what I portrayed on the surface to do something like that. Then I was petrified. Like, I had the biggest masks up, I was this hard, tough dude, work. These are soft, that enjoyed life when he's breaks and all this sort of stuff. It was a facade. And I knew this, oh, I'm gonna say I'm committed to something. And I remember sitting in the work unit in Port Hedland. late for my flight, the only one that day that I could catch and I had to fly to Perth and to Canada. If I missed this, I was stuck in Pilbara and didn't want that. And like I've got to record this video. I recorded this. I think it went fine. I don't know how many minutes might have been seven or eight minutes. I don't know. But I was petrified. I remember recording it. And I've committed this program. And I think this is what's going to happen. And these dudes don't know what I said. And I just turned the phone off. And I didn't turn it on until I got to Cannes, the stories were running crazy in my head. What have I done? People are gonna judge me people are gonna think I'm in a cult. Some of the comments actually manifest for that. But, but what I got from that was so much support price. Oh my god, we didn't know you okay, but this is great. Why more men doing this. And I wasn't expecting that part. Yeah. So when I got that little taste of it, my next video. The next video, I spoke about losing my mate. When I was 24. And how hard that was. And what that started to do. I started feeling and I think I cried that video, I got so much support. It blew my mind spoke a bit to my significance, which Little did I realize at the time was actually a healthy part I needed to keep me keep me going. Yeah, then the next one, I started unpacking my maiden suicide being in the mines, I started to actually go this is actually good speaking and being witnessed in this still scared shitless Darn. That's my little significance piece was important to me. But I started unpacking this online, I started talking about this stuff. And yeah, there was some judgments, a lot of judgments on the way. But again, like one of my things I know I'm really good at now is like when I commit to something, and I'm going to do something, I want to be fucking good at it. I do. And I'm like, Alright, I'm gonna get really good at doing whatever it is I'm doing right now the personal growth cells, I'm gonna get really good at this, I'm going to go, I'm going to be the one that plays for out. Like, I'm going to be the one that stands out in the group of men. And that really served me well. And I think I've unpacked it a lot over the years made. And there's still times now where I, I have vulnerable moments where someone will ask a question, and I'm like, whether I'm in an event or a treat, or in a group and I just touches on something like Oh, holy shit, I'm going to share something who's vulnerable. I wasn't ready for this. I wasn't prepared for this. And there's still more to unpack from this. And I'm okay with that now. So yes, I can go on lots of stories about how that yeah, how I was able to visit that or express that or unpack that or, or navigate that.

Ian Hawkins: 53:29

Yeah, that's powerful, mate. Thank you. So you mentioned before you talked about some some limitations that you placed on yourself and or you went into the mines, and there were limitations and that actually served you could you think of a more recent time because people listening to this are going to be at all different levels. So where are you at maybe recently where there was a limitation of self placed attention that you had placed on yourself that did serve you and then how you realize that it wasn't serving you anymore, and how you break free from that limitation?

Steve X McNamara: 53:59

Ah, okay. Okay, so Oh, limitation that wasn't serving me anymore I don't know consciously I don't know if I can say there was a limitation placed on me myself because again, I set boundaries now. But if there was actually, this is this is relevant. Like, I'm an entrepreneur. I love working Yeah, I'm a coach and I do a lot of things. I'm an entrepreneur and I love working I love that. But one of the limitations I had and it was a limiting story, but it served me well for a while is like could I need to work a lot of hours to make money. No work more hours to make money. I need to hustle to make money Gary Vee style. This didn't serve me to a point. It did serve me. But where I I really took a long Time to shift away from this. But when I realized it didn't serve me when it was costing my relationship, definitely when I became a dad, definitely. But the biggest thing it was costing me was me time, like filling my cup. And that's why it's great in a relationship with my beautiful wife, Chaitanya, who's so deep in the work, we have this self awareness. And we've done a lot of work to really understand each other. From a non judgmental mental place, Daria, we had our moments on the journey, and we still do, but this one of how we fill our cup. As soon as I was, she used to this is this is the thing now if, in her words, if I'm being a C bomb, if I'm being that she's like, You need to go away tomorrow, you need to go fishing, hiking, camping tomorrow, because you're being a, that's it.

Ian Hawkins: 55:56

I'd be doing that every second day when you to meet. Now.

Steve X McNamara: 56:01

Here's the funny thing, I'll get to the evolution of things, I think it's really important to share what this has provided in my life. Like, I still love working. And I still work if you measure it in hours a lot. But the way I define that has changed a lot. But as soon as I've implemented something where I've stuck to having boundaries around not how much work I do know, if my cup is filled, I need to fill my cup. That's the positive boundary I have with myself right now. My income is not determined by how many hours I work, my income is not determined by how many people I help. Now that might sound contradictory to a lot of coaches or people out there. It's not even I was even coached that I need more clients. And that's bullshit. But I needed to transition into more I fill my cup. Not only was I more energized, and I could serve from a place of a full cup and create a bigger impact in my clients lives and I actually started getting less clients. But I found that the clients I have were more aligned the breakthroughs I have a more profound. And again, I'm an entrepreneur, I have a number of income streams, the other income streams that were aligned, took off. Not because I did more, all I did more of was filling my cup, it improved my relationship because I was better at listening to understand better communicating, I was better in the relationship as a father and more present, because I was getting my cup filled.

Ian Hawkins: 57:27

Man, so true. And I don't know if you found this with your business clients, but you teach them exactly the same thing. And help them just to get on top of their own personal stuff. You don't need to teach them any more business stuff. If you're if you've been in it for long enough. You know everything you've learned all the different types of ways that you can do it. Now you just got to go and as you said, fill up your cup, keep clearing whatever grief still needs to be cleared. And then just go and do it. Take that puck and action get it done.

Steve X McNamara: 57:58

100% The one thing and this is the cap on the story at the moment. I've taken up golf again, I used to be a great golf when I'm a kid and major anger problems with sport major, especially Golf I was kicked out of golf clubs like I was I'd abused my playmates during was all everyone else's fault. And I was really skilled at it. And I've picked up the clubs again, before we left cans a couple of years ago then the Rhona come in and like I don't need to do that. But recently I'm like how can I I need to I need something to take action on that fills my cup. I've got the fishing in that but I'm like, There's something else I was going to play as he rolls again. I like 44 on like a run around kicking the footy with the young bloke and then I was getting a bit sore and I was doing a lot of work and recovering. Like do I really want to actually play footy again? And it was a no. I'm like, No, my body's like, Dude, you don't need to prove anything. Don't worry about it. Yeah, fight with the sun, but golf. Okay, so I've taken up golf again. And the last three games of golf have played have made an average of 5k parading holes in my shop, joy I haven't had to do shit. Now of course, I've taken action before and thereafter but the results coming on the golf course I'm actually finding and I'm like, I'm gonna play a lot more. You're gonna set up

Ian Hawkins: 59:23

I remember this conversation my coach about 12 months ago. I was like, Man, I I earn the most money the week before I have a holiday. She's like, how about you take a holiday every month? And I'm like, Well yeah, it's like exactly what you describe, the more you fill yourself up now, for those people in a job it's the same thing you may not necessarily be able to increase your income instantly. But taking that time off, filling your cup brings back to you value it brings back to your strength it brings back to you everything you need to it's it's counterintuitive, but it absolutely works. Yeah.

Steve X McNamara: 59:59

How 100%. And here's the thing, it's counterintuitive for a lot too. And it's even the way societal conditioning, we all have a long weekend and that the powers that be know that this works too, and you go away, you have a break, you get refreshed, but you go back into something that's not aligned, and you become a slave to the system. And I think that's the key to this, too. The only reason this works for me now is on doing things that are aligned. And that has taken me a lot of work to get to that point. And anyone with a job, I used to be big on get out of your job, that's not aligned. But it's like anything, there's a process. But if you're aware that anything in your life, especially a job or career is not serving you, then you actually need to take steps to get out of that or be open to look at other things. Otherwise, you are going to down the track, have some regret or have some whatever. And I think without going on too much have attended the last two and a half years have given people enough opportunity, yet with mandates and all the staff to go, Hey, here's a sign from the university, you've got a chance to actually look at this. And actually maybe just get out of your own way and go Yeah, well, I don't agree with this, I'm going to be open to something else and take action on it. For people this last two and a half years.

Ian Hawkins: 1:01:16

And to me that is why currently we have post pandemic fatigue, because people saw the possibilities. They liked slowing down. Now they've gone back to the rush of, of having to commute to work and rushing their kids ran all the different places. And now they're like, hanging on how did we get back here in this same grind. And what I would add to that is like, you know, yes, take steps to get out. But also know that you can bring alignment, and you can bring your strengths to your job, change there, start creating the momentum when you're in the role, because you can't just flick a switch and then suddenly find everything on the other side, you got it, you've got to start taking the steps.

Steve X McNamara: 1:01:57

Yeah, you and that's a good point to like, and I think it comes back to like, be a better person in the environment you're in. And then when you get to that point, you've got the confidence in that. And that's like, the you raising your vibration. Like if you're going to attract in then the opportunities, the circumstances, the interactions, the people or whatever, they've got to give you the key to the next path, or they're going to give you the boost, or the the insight or the synchronicity or whatever it is.

Ian Hawkins: 1:02:22

Yeah, yeah. And we've talked about this before you I see your posts, when you mentioned before, when you're younger, was just posting a fish or a snake or whatever, why are you still doing that today? And the posts that catch me, like you're holding a big bearer on your hand. I'm like, Steve, when the fuck are you running or a tree? That's just teaching people how to do that shit, right? And I know you've given like it's in the pipeline. And and that's not the main part of what you're doing now. But tell us a bit about your passion for bringing more of that wild man to people, particularly people who need more of that in their life or maybe in the city and and they're in those corporate roles where they're under stress and you know the value that that's going to bring to them.

Steve X McNamara: 1:03:05

Yeah, well, I already have done for a number of years take men and women out into the bush, nothing creepy or anything like that. And we do a lot of release work and a lot of harmonizing work and everything in nature. Nature is number one for me. I love going to nature I always bumping animals always they're always there doesn't matter if I've run retreats or private immersion and a lizard, a snake, a possum, whatever. Butterflies, there's always animals there. And I think that's healing in itself. But I already do take people out there. But you're right, I have got something that I'm working on where I can integrate it. I would love to take men especially out like on a kayaking trip, like a kayaking trip where they're they're not going to be back with a car, they're not going to have a special campsite, they're probably going to have a swag. We'll go out under the stars. And we're going to go and we're adventure but we're going to fish all day. I love fishing and this is this is the thing with me the way I see fishing and it was like mentioned earlier like in my 20s It was my escape but fishing. I think it promotes it's like people working with tools like men working with tools, men fixing things or building things fishing for me is that because it's not Alright, I'm gonna go catch a fish. I just have to tie a thing on here and go know why I know about it. I need to the weather needs to be right I study the weather. I need to go at the right time of the year when the fish are doing this. I need to understand where are the fish gonna be? Before I even get out on the water. I I'm like okay, I'm gonna go here. I need to know what sort of gear I need. Like it's not a one size fits all. Like I shared a picture the other day of a big Marie Kondo guide. And then there's fishing law that says big. Now I just didn't walk into a shop ago. I want that because like that's the shiniest one or that's cheap or that's the biggest going to catch the biggest winner now and like it's going to dive a certain depth. It's a certain weight I can throw There's a certain amount, but I still have to go out there and find the specific spot where I know that a fish might be and do the right cause there's so much thinking that goes into this which is really healthy to be able to. Sometimes I didn't get that result to take the photo photos as a result, but in the doing of this, it's so healthy, I feel it promotes this. I'm solving things as I go. I'm gonna what's my solution I'm trying to solve fishing Kayak or whatever it is and even even bigger for men like there's an aspect not the bigger fish but there's a providing aspect. I love bringing home a fresh fish for my family. I love that there's a huge and I think that promotes again, a different sort of way of looking at providing where it's just get a paycheck, and then I'm home as a man it's bullshit. There's so much with this. So I'm gonna share my hunting photos on there hunting is my I think you're hunting I'm I'm reserving for any not that I think it's gonna happen and just in case there's some sort of apocalypse and I need to go home I'm very good hunter, but I don't need to do it.

Ian Hawkins: 1:06:05

And suddenly people will want to know all about that right?

Steve X McNamara: 1:06:10

I do get people requesting to take me out with like, crossbows and that but I i am i I'm not a I'm not a huge proponent of killing animals. I'm not I think they're amazing and beings, but at the same time, I think some of them are here to be our food sometimes. But yeah, the the taking men out into the wild and even if it's not fishing or something, there's there's got to be some sort of healthy action even setting up a swag setting up a fire for some men that have never experienced that, especially with their fathers and never been out in nature and, and, like wandering around and actually taking it in that that can be huge for some for some men.

Ian Hawkins: 1:06:49

It says, go,

Steve X McNamara: 1:06:51

yeah, no, I was gonna say it's like, there is there is an abundance of different results that can come from just getting out of an environment into something that you're not used to.

Ian Hawkins: 1:07:03

Yes, for me, it was patience, like, learning patience, when my daddy's take me fishing, and then being able to then pass it on to my young fella. And it turns out, he's far more patient than me. Because after a few hours, and while I was guys like Emma, we're gone. We've had six, seven hour days down there. And of course, he always catches more than me as well. But our children always end up being more talented than us anyway, right?

Steve X McNamara: 1:07:26

Oh, generally, yeah. And then a good good, sort of, to take it back to the relationship with my dad and how he taught me a lot of things. And I remember I wasn't patient when my dad was out there, my, I go fishing by myself and catch a heap of fish. But if my dad come away, and all that I was just triggered a sheet all the time, I was impatient. And I was like I was trying to impress her so long and things like this. And a recent healing I did, which was fascinating. It was around this motivation to always want to make my dad proud around sport. And I was aware of it, but didn't really get to any root causes of it. But I started this healing journey recently going into a lot of the root causes in that. And will come of that I did have a big breakthrough where I saw my dad and all the great healings he does and all this sort of stuff for me and but I was away. And it was actually that the last picture official I shared on social media, the big married God, I found myself straightaway wanting him to send a photo like immediately. And I like all Where's that coming from? Like, I wanted to show him that I'm good at something. I'm good at something. But yeah, now I am far more patient when I go away with the data and all that sort of stuff. And I make sure I do because I really enjoy it. But yeah, back in the day, I was not. That's one thing that I yeah, that I wasn't even though I had all these skills and these sorts of things. But again, that's come with the growth work. It's come with the healing that the relationship for why I give it meaning with my dad, and yeah, it's really fascinating unwinding that.

Ian Hawkins: 1:08:57

Yeah, and I love watching you interacting with your young feller and teach him about animals and, and you have mentioned that there have been some people that have come at you for various reasons. But ultimately, you're teaching him the reality of the situation, not the fear based version of what animals are actually all about.

Steve X McNamara: 1:09:16

Snakes, especially other than like, I've picked up all the deadliest snakes in the world, and people call me crazy and all this I'm like, they're just an animal. And I'm like, I'm super chilled, and they've got a resonance with them. And I learned that early on, like, Why would I kill a snake? Or why should I fear it? And I brought that same meeting with with river. It's actually fascinating. Somehow he's afraid of dogs. He's so nervous a dogs right now and nothing's ever happened when you see a snake can I pick it up? But it's that teaching of him that like hey there still be conscious and aware and teaching him things with it. But it's it's never fear based. It's like, it's like climbing and stuff like that. It's like, I'm all for it. Go for it. If he falls he falls anyway. ever falls,

Ian Hawkins: 1:10:02

there are little kids that grow up on the side of cliffs. boundaries, and it's education and really cool. Now, you mentioned there before, like when you when you take people out or you go out yourself, it's there's preparation, you have to have all the things in place, you have to have the knowledge, you have to have the wisdom, you have to develop the skills. So now, let's just segue into how you're helping the work only with men or mainly with men. How are you helping people to then make the same changes for their everyday life?

Steve X McNamara: 1:10:42

Yeah, well, my intention is to work with men, but I always get aligned women come that want to work with me. I've worked with a lot more women in the past until the last couple of years where I really got clear, and unlike the clarity was always there. But it was like owning my truth. And like, No, you are here for to help men. And I really needed to grow into that. That, that belief, you could say. And generally, it's interesting, I've got a spectrum of men that come to work with me and what I help them with if I'm doing a retreat this weekend, and I haven't done a live retreat in a couple of years because of the Rhona. I've been doing a lot of single person stuff in person, but I remember sending him a little bio on like, oh, shit, what do I write about myself this time. And I think I sent you I'm like, I'm, I'm a professional sought after all rounder in the coaching space. Because to describe what I do with clients, I get a range of things that they come to me with, because not every person is the same, I'm not. And it's not that I'm not a master at none. And, like, do all these things I've like I've got all these tools that I use. And I find that, for example, on the spectrum, I've got men that come to me who might have some drug and alcohol problems, or they've been doing their best to get off them. And things like that. And they just got a relationship breakdowns and they're struggling their job, but they're, they're already taking big steps. So I've got them that do take a lot of work. So what I'll do with them is get them to implement simple practices, and bringing awareness back that they do have the power to change and, and things like this. And bit by bit depending on how long they work with me, we we just implement more and more things into their practices and some accountability getting clear on their goals. It's actually really simple stuff. Yeah, it is. But it's repetitive. And it's constant, repetitive. And that there and then if there's any, any need which are generally used to come and work in person, then that's where something would align to go. Come with me for three days. No technology, we go out in the bush, we'll probably fast we'll do a heap of breath, work and body work and whatever that comes with that. And then we'll do some integration work when you go back into your reality or in your environment. That's, that's one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum I found in the last couple of years is I've got a lot of a bunch of men coming to me that have got successes in their life. They've got monetary success, they've got business success. But at the same time, their relationships sock, their sex, life's non existent. Their health isn't the best, they're not giving attention to themselves. And sometimes there's substance abuse in there. But more often than not, it's just they're workaholics. So yeah, that's sort of that other end of the spectrum of work with, and it's fascinating. What do they need? practices, that simple stuff, the repetitive action, something I'm really really good at is keeping people accountable as like cutting through the bullshit, I'm exceptional at that. And I'm just so grateful that my coaching role or consulting role, when you look at it, I get paid to do that, too. It's like, it's amazing.

Ian Hawkins: 1:14:00

The link I would draw there is that their self sabotage is around their personal stuff. And you're just giving them the simple tools to, to have the same success in that area of their life that they do in every other area of their life.

Steve X McNamara: 1:14:14

Yeah, exactly. And, again, it goes back to when you asked him like, what do men need for that, like that motivational trigger or whatever, like men know, they know all these these men that come to me whether they work with me or not. One of the first things they say hey, I've been meaning to do something about this for a while. Like how long generally it's years.

Ian Hawkins: 1:14:34

You they didn't really use I find they want to be in a good space when they started. Yeah, but they wait till they get themselves back up again. And then they do it. Yeah,

Steve X McNamara: 1:14:43

again, and it's been fascinating learning for me like I work with a lot of people right now aside from the coaching and consulting who got a lot of money, a lot of financial success in their life and it's fascinating seeing the the similarities with them With people who haven't had a lot of success in exactly the same thing, it's like, they're waiting till they've got to a good spot to do it. But then I realized that this good spot never comes. Or they get to a good spot. And then something else is not working or something else breaks down, whether it's another marriage, whether it's while they do have a business deal, go down, and whatever it is, there's always something that that stops from from getting better. And whether it's the bridge of the marketing that that I put out, and I don't know what you put out, there's a bridge there that has them resonate enough to go Holy shit, maybe I should, maybe I should talk to someone or a man or Steve or whoever it is. Or maybe it's someone who said something a bit of social proof like I get, I don't know how you go, right now I'm getting mainly referrals. I'm hardly doing anything on social media. And that social proof comes from someone else going you should talk to Steve. And then yeah, it's trust,

Ian Hawkins: 1:15:51

right? Like, the more trust you've got in the marketplace, the more people are trusting you. And then you get referrals where the trusts already there, already had someone shine a light on just all the work you've helped them with. And we've been talking a bit about this, too. It's like, for men, we need to come together more and find more ways to be helping each other and yes, absolutely. Women to this is like for humanity. Yeah. But the Unity pieces is really like the age of competition is gone. It's how can we collaborate? And one, one plus one makes many right instead of just the all I'm only going to do this if it's submitted for me sort of attitude.

Steve X McNamara: 1:16:35

Yeah, yeah. That's the paradigm shift we're having right now. I suppose that last point you made there, it's like collaborating unattached. Like, we live in abundance, we really do. The divisive competitive paradigm is shifting and moving now. And it doesn't mean we can't be competitive in the marketplace. I say the marketplace is like the wild as well. This competition is still there, but not with each other in regards to like this. Like in Australia, tall. poppy syndrome is hardcore. It's like drag people down. If you're not feeling it is hardcore, and men are at the core of this and create the biggest change really soon just by coming together on attached monetary friggin ego your skills or your modality is better than mine, whatever that rubbish isn't No, you're all we've all got our genius. Let's come together let's let's fucking link arms and show the rest of the world that is striving for what does it mean to be a man where's the model of men and and give the world many models of what it means to be a man. Now that's that's what I think is it's all about.

Ian Hawkins: 1:17:39

Yeah, I love that. And it's interesting. You mentioned the tall poppy syndrome. That's already the individual podcast on that for the listeners have listened to my individual ones. There. Yeah, exactly on that. Why? I mean, I know why because people are worried if they stick their head above the parapet that they're going to get shot out. But why do we not encourage that? Why don't we cut that down? Well, like it's time to change that attitude. It's like no, no, we want to celebrate other men success. We want to celebrate people who are out there making a difference and we want to find ways to lift other people up so they can do the same.

Steve X McNamara: 1:18:13

Yeah, I've really learned like a few years back, I started looking to a lot of American sort of men influences coaches, business people, because they were portrayed as being arrogant and of themselves. But for me, I'm like, That is powerful men in power, celebrating their wins celebrating their family celebrating their business, but what I found the likes and I mentioned some names like Ryan's German. Sean Whalen, these guys, Ryan McClure these these guys are resonating us they are loud and proud but they celebrate other men doing well. On repeat you I see him on social media it's them commenting on other dudes stuff that of winning big and like, this is the sheer like they're they're talking about how good they're going with this this this they're copying the heat. Don't worry. They're copying the tall poppy hate like are you just stop yourself just arrogant. But they are making more of an impact by being that model that it's We need men to celebrate their greatness. We need other men to go You're fucking different but what you're doing that's epic. Be fucking going.

Ian Hawkins: 1:19:25

Yep. 100%. So good. So good. So this is where you're at now in your life and your business in a whole lot of different things. What's the next big thing for you? Personally, I know there's endless different opportunities coming and you and you'd be across the vast majority of the view specifically, what are you wanting to bring to the world is like a passion piece that you know is going to have a real A powerful influence on the way we the way we move forward.

Steve X McNamara: 1:20:04

I think you got a taste of it yesterday. Definitely with a woman revolution I am and it's it's sort of a segue from what we're talking about here on really bringing men together what I've been blessed with over the years, even though I've traveled the world and be mentored mainly by women, retreats, events, immersions, all the things I've been surrounded by women, but what I've done over that time is really connected in with some some men who are really unique, doing their thing. entrepreneurs, business owners, fathers, just like yourself, but connected in but like the premise of my podcast highlighting men doing great things in the world. And that's something that I've just initiated. It's not a new idea or anything, but I really see this as my passion project and bring it in together, whether it's events, whether it's retreats, whether it's my group, podcast, whatever it is bringing that and really sticking that in the forefront of everyone's like awareness, like giving them something that's grounded, heart centered, action solution focused, to give them an alternative to the other rubbish in society, switch off from the politics, switch off from the fucking news, the movies, all that I'm a movie fan, I read that, but I mean, the modeling of the images or what's portrayed in all this stuff, give give that that's something I'm huge on and you touched on a little bit of before, like, I've got, I've got events and stuff coming where I really want to take men, especially out in the bush do some things around that. I think that's in a bigger format. That's probably a while off because the other the roundtable that we're working on that that's a really big deal. And, and even not, I know it's a big deal, because it's taken me probably two or three years to actually actually grow to have the courage to, to say, Yeah, this is what I'm, this is what I'm birthing. This is this is this is something that really needs to happen on the planet. And yeah, it's a big deal.

Ian Hawkins: 1:22:08

Great stuff might inspiring. Now, before we get to where people can find you, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners around your story around grief, specifically around anything that, you know, would be really beneficial?

Steve X McNamara: 1:22:27

Well, first thing that just come up right then and around grief. It's something I've never really resonated with, like the word grief, but I look at my process and how my process of coming to understand give myself permission to feel. I think for for any of the listeners out there, definitely give yourself permission to feel no matter what it is in life, whether it's anger, whether it's frustration, give yourself permission, because when you give yourself permission to feel and it's okay to feel it starts to break down like that, that conditioning or that programming that's around well, you're used to highly emotional or who are you to speak about this or the shutdown of your expression. I think that's, that's a big thing. And I know some of the things we've touched on here, I've had many instances in life where I've held on to stuff for so long, so long, and I've I have intentionally suppressed it, you could say until I learned the tools until I learn what it means. And I've got the the amazing results from giving myself permission to feel and it's okay to not have it all together. It's okay to not have shit sorted, it's okay, that you're gonna be judged. It's okay that sometimes you do stupid and say stupid shit. It's all okay, if you're going to do something about it. If you're going to just allow yourself to feel that will be some value. I think I'd leave the listeners with another thing too, for all the men out there. I think this speaks for what a man start doing she love like, seriously? Yeah, we all know you're going to do the best for your family and all that visit really the best like for your family. If you're not, you're not giving yourself the joy, the love and the fun. It's not 100% Yeah, I think that's what I believe with too, for sure.

Ian Hawkins: 1:24:11

Awesome. Now, Noah said, we're going to finish on that. But when you're talking about instead of somebody else. Be here for three more hours. You mentioned earlier about our generation. So for those of us who are 45 Plus without going into any details. We we often had dads who went off and worked or they were away for long periods of time or whatever else. And then we did a lot of the modeling was done by the time at home with our moms. I'm really curious about this because that's something that I've probably not drawn that directly I understand exactly how that that has played out. But what about how is that how have you seen for you to have that awareness? How did you see that that influenced you? Who? And what were the negatives and positives from that?

Steve X McNamara: 1:25:06

Pool. This could be a rabbit hole, but I'll, I'll keep it simple. I'll give the example My dad used to work a lot, a lot all the time work is off us off. He was a carpenter builder, I get up in the morning, he was gone, I get home at night. And all he wanted to do was have a couple of beers and chill in a in like, turn on the TV or whatever it was. And there was no presence of the kids and stuff like that, knowing what I know now about men cycles and stuff like we're meant to be chilling the end of the day, and all this sort of stuff. Knowing what I know now, unlike he needed that time. But what we what mom picked up the role of she was the caretaker through the week, she was the one there in the morning there at night doing the do a taking all the action all the time. And that, although my mom's a machine, and most moms are like that part there to model that, or what a lot of men do call in is something similar to their mom, and then wonder why their relationship doesn't work. Yeah, energetics there. They wonder why they've got the awareness that they want the relationship to be better, they know that they work too much. And they don't want to work too much, but they don't know what to do about it. It's the unconscious programming picked up of what they've modeled. And again, I, I know this is an agenda, it's been an agenda for a century, too. And not taking away from women in the workplace, I want every human to live out their fucking dreams in their genius zone. Some women are epic business and working and doing all the things. But when it comes to a family dynamic and relationship, there's an agenda to bring that down. And this this role model of the mother, father, how it's been distorted and shifted through roles in society through wars, through

Ian Hawkins: 1:26:53

through birthing parent concepts, what the fuck through the

Steve X McNamara: 1:26:57

the news there, rather than I'm actually really passionate about this now, because it comes to the actual family dynamic, it has an impact on our kids, we have these awarenesses now of what we need as children, just to fill our cup, like I'm all for, like, I'm all for gay relationships and all that as long as the kid if they got kids in that sort of thing, are getting their cup filled. And we're leaving for generations, but seeing society has distorted this so much the impact it's had on us, the ones in our generation that haven't done the healing and wondering why relationships aren't working wonderful, why they've got no sex life, or they're addicted to porn, or whatever it is, or they can't stop working, or they only love money, whatever it is, yeah. Bringing it back to going okay, cool. How do we shift and change this so that from the awareness I've had that I definitely don't want that to repeat coming from a very 14 hour day worker, I was doing that. But I couldn't even get in a relationship. What did I want? I wanted a relationship. Well, I realized that I couldn't have a trade off. If I'm going to keep working 14 hours a day. I can't have a relationship. I don't want to I don't want to be like my dad. The next step, okay. And I living this life now. I'm like, it's one of the biggest things that I give anyone who comes to me or even if I'm putting it out there, what have I got now? I've got an epic relationship where we get heaps of quality time with my beautiful wife, with my son, I have so much time with my son that he has to tell me to go away when his cup is filled. I don't know how many you might get this now a bit, but I don't know how many dads out there can say that seriously, or even?

Ian Hawkins: 1:28:45

Well, absolutely not. I mean, thankfully now, but definitely not at that age. And and that's just what a gift to give him that self awareness at that age, two year old

Steve X McNamara: 1:28:55

100%. He says to me that I need some space. That's cool. But he's modeled that from Tni, to from some of the times we're intrigued or some of the times you've been unpacking stuff. But the other thing I do live life on my terms. It doesn't mean I'm making 10s of millions of dollars. That's not my goal. Yes, that part of the picture. My goal is to live this life where my cups getting filled. My relationship is growing and thriving. I have an epic sex life. I have an epic relationship with my son. I have a great community around me where I get to highlight my gifts and help people. Golf is in my calendar before work.

Ian Hawkins: 1:29:38

That's awesome. I do by the way. Yes, but

Steve X McNamara: 1:29:41

it's taken a lot of work. This is not something I've had massive challenges financially business wise, we've built a business it's fallen over we've we've had to change the way we do this. There's been the struggles, but at the end of the day, having these gifts from the awareness again of how we want our family unit to work how we see that benefit humanity, that driver and getting the results now, like, the monetary stuff comes the business success comes the it comes as a positive symptom of that. And it truly does. It takes patience, it takes practice it takes keep showing up. And it takes courage to be different to and to be okay with that courage to go, hey, you know what, I actually don't agree with how the rest of society wants to run a family. This is how I'm going to do it from a healthy place from a whole place. And I'm more than happy to talk about it. Because as I say, there's a big problem with this out there like like, where do we go to model a man? How do we know where do we go to model a family? What the fucking TV like we could all the dramas in the sitcoms and all this Where do you think MERS was started movies? Well, it seems like the last the parent or their parents are divorced. Like

Ian Hawkins: 1:31:02

once you start seeing it, you can't unsee it, but not everyone's up to that point. So be interesting to see it as people go back to their TVs in their movies, what they do recognize of the same pattern, because I thought I was gonna mention there all those things you were talking about the conditioning, right? It's like it's like just so ingrained that you don't, don't even notice. It's what the description heard the other day. It's it's a military grade psychological warfare, like that's what we're competing against in our head. So no wonder there are different times where you must do have this to where you have a breakthrough. And you go, Oh, how did it take me so long to realize this? And it's like, well, yeah, because you weren't ready?

Steve X McNamara: 1:31:40

You know about the epic life I live? I promise you, he's like to get to here. And it's not an endgame. I'm not there. There's no there. But it's, it's it's the breakthroughs you had when you look back and like, Why was I doing that? Why was that a part of my life. And I thought it was okay, or it's fascinating.

Ian Hawkins: 1:32:03

And the thing that really struck me, and if griefs taught me anything, it's like when you have those big moments, you get really clear on what's most important, really fucking quickly. And when I lost my dad, that was one of those moments, but then also, like, one of my staff when I was still in corporate passes away, suddenly, I'd been doing a fair bit of coaching with him. And it's like, Man, I feel like I mentioned this every second week on this interview on these interviews, but it's like, I sat there that day going. None of this stuff's important. Like all the stuff that we were talking about, about his work and all that sort of stuff. But what is most important is my health is my relationship, my wife, my relationship with my kids. But how many people are actually putting that at the top of their list? So yes, you have to be a provider, but are you prioritizing this, I love how you painted that picture. Because it is it's like that conditioning, if we've been learnt the How to Be a man, or how to be a woman and that's out of balance, then you have lack of balance in your relationship, including in intimacy, which so many people are wanting to have, but not really sure how to navigate it. Well, then we have to actually take some action to change that. And by prioritizing as you've talked about the whole way through, filling up your cup, and making sure you're looking after yourself so that you can be of higher service to your family. Yeah, awesome.

Steve X McNamara: 1:33:33

Yeah, it's really the key. And again, I think we're really shifting fast away from that, oh, that's just selfish push, putting yourself first sort of rubbish. I think we're shifting away from that now.

Ian Hawkins: 1:33:47

That calendar who said this, but it's like everything that we do every single thing we do, the good, the bad, and everything in between. We do it under the belief that will help us feeling better. So everything everything we do is selfish. So be selfish in a way that's actually serving you. Not in a way that's to your detriment.

Steve X McNamara: 1:34:11

Good audio I'm gonna give a good audio book or a book recommendation for your listeners and even yourself if you haven't like this, and this was recommended by a good mate of mine Kleenex Morgan. It's called busting loose from the money game. Now, don't let the title deceive you. Some concepts that are shared in them. It's not really new, but in its way it's presented. It literally paints the picture that nothing is real except you. You get to respond to react to absolutely everything. And when you can come back to that level of radical responsibility, what I call it you've got no choice but to be selfish because you're the only one who exists. No, I love it. It's a good one. It's it's something that Um, you need to listen to two or three times or read two or three times, because it will probably start is like a bit over the top. That doesn't make sense. And there's like, alright, that sort of does and it's got to sink in, but that it's so true. Like everything everything we do in life is for a feeling, we don't take action unless we know we're going to get some sort of emotional benefit from it. Most, most of the time for people that are unconscious, it's a behavior or something like that. But when you can bring some conscious awareness to that you're going to be more than happy to be selfish, you're going to be like, I'm going to be so fucking selfish right now and look after myself. Because the results for the rest of your life, relationships, family, business, money, health, all that they're going to rapidly improve.

Ian Hawkins: 1:35:42

Absolutely. And for those questioning that it is only you it's like well, how do you know anything exists outside of your own brain? It's just what you're seeing through an eye which is a processor which

Steve X McNamara: 1:35:55

you go in everything's everything's a hologram and the simulation we can do.

Ian Hawkins: 1:36:01

We haven't got that long. Where can people find you, Steve?

Steve X McNamara: 1:36:07

are first and foremost, mining podcast as well, the woman Revolution podcast. At the moment, I'm going a little bit of a pause, but there's heaps of episodes there that they can tune into. I've got some amazing men that I've interviewed on there. I'm pretty sure I'll have yourself coming up there soon. Which will be awesome. Look forward to also I've got a telegram group a very, very small intimate telegram group while men revolution as welfare on telegram pretty sure you're gonna probably have the links or something with this anyway. And just on the socials, like I even though with the high you could call it censorship and whatever, for the last few years, I know my Facebook or I shadow banned a lot and everything like that, but that's still my go to places Facebook on there all the time. It's where I've connected with most of my you could say marketplace or even friends really. But yeah, they're the main places you can find me and I've got an installer and all that as well. But yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 1:37:05

go to the shownotes and you can find them all. Yeah, Steve. That was awesome. That's the longest one. I've done a while but when we knew where we jumped on that it would be so bad. To get you better. Yeah. Thank you for sharing so openly and sharing your wisdom and knowledge and, and your wall man revolution, man. Cheers.

Steve X McNamara: 1:37:26

Now. Thanks for having me. Thank you. It's been epic.

Ian Hawkins: 1:37:29

You're welcome. I appreciate you being on here. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.