The Ripple Effect Of A Man’s Positive Energy with John Milham

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the end Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this word. I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

Today all and welcome to this week's guest, John Milam, John, how are you?

Unknown Speaker 1:06

Fantastic. And thank you for having me on.

Ian Hawkins 1:09

You are so welcome. It's funny, I've kind of watch your journey from afar. I think we did something program together many moons ago. And then suddenly, your stuff started popping up a fair bit around mentoring men. So these you gotta follow the nudges. Right? And I went, Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:25

absolutely. I'm so grateful. Like, I have no idea where I'm popping up. I hope it's welcome. And I hope it's useful. But yeah,

Ian Hawkins 1:34

yeah, and particularly that stuff around men and much and much needed space for them a safe place to talk and explore whatever it is that they need to explore. And we'll get more into exactly what you do. As we go. I wanted to start with, you know, that big moment. And and it's a big moment. So tell us a bit about that, that moment, your life that really stopped you in your tracks?

Unknown Speaker 1:59

n like with me ever since. In: 2006

Ian Hawkins 5:50

UK if we UK if we sort of talk more about those moments and how that all unfolded?

Unknown Speaker 5:56

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm, I appreciate the chance to talk about it. Because it's one thing about grief mate, and you would know this, right, that there's, we shy away from these conversations, because they're all you know, socially awkward, or we don't want to face it. But man, for me and other people who go through this, it's the most important thing in our lives. Even 15 years later, I want to talk about grief, you know,

Ian Hawkins 6:21

yeah, yeah. But the bit that comes to me there is when it happens to people close to us, we still don't know what to how to act. And, and even though like, I don't know about you, but having gone through it, when it does, you can't like, oh, what's the right thing to say? And all there's no right thing. So but I would love to hear more about? So when, what sort of thoughts? Are you going through? Are you are you able to be conscious of this? Or you're just in such a state of shock that you're not sure what sort of thoughts you're going in and about? Like, you're questioning everything, right? Like, what's life going to look like? What What am I what's happened? Like, you know, why? Why all those questions? What what were what were some of those conversations you have yourself?

Unknown Speaker 7:07

cess, right. I had three kids: 1310

Ian Hawkins: 11:52

No, that's okay. Exactly what you described there, I'm sure many goes through. And I'm glad you highlighted that. Because sometimes in grief, people can get stuck in feeling guilty about there being a good side. But I can relate to that a lot. And the same, like, I hate to think what my parenting would have continued to be if I hadn't gone through the experience that I'd experienced. Yeah. I'd hate to think where my, my life would have gone, I'd probably be still just running around in circles, not really knowing where are we going? And again, I couldn't give up what I've got. Now, of course, I would want things to be different. And that's okay to have both of those thoughts. True. And yeah, and I'm glad you highlighted that.

Unknown Speaker: 12:43

I often think of it as parallel lives. Right. And as you know, another one ceases to grow. One ceases to grow. But the other shoots off on this growth spurt, almost right. So you don't give up who you were. But it ceases to become relevant to your current situation? Yeah. Sorry. I think every now and then I just jumped in. And, you know, it's beautiful, like at that wedding. You know, I have to be honest, I was triggered, right? Yeah, my, you know, I'm watching my son. And you know, and he's best man, his brother, and, you know, all the family and gather around, they did the whole thing. The celebration was beautiful on every level. And I'm sitting in the corner going, the only thing I could say is, I wish you know, I you know, I wish I was here with the person, you know, that I've, I've missed everyday sense. And the interesting thing about that was the acceptance that I wasn't going to bring that into the wedding. Right? So I felt sadness, and joy sitting next to each other. And yet I am distance because I was going through something that I couldn't share with anyone in that moment. So, you know, it's like, you know, grief involves that kind of stoic ownership, you know, if you will, it's not a bad thing. It's just like, I think it's tough. But it for me, like, you know, I just, you know, once you accept that, that's the outcome, your life is different. You go through it, and then a couple of days later, you're just excited that your kids are married, you know, you're over it, you've done it. Well, and you haven't laid any burden on anyone else. And I feel good about that.

Ian Hawkins: 14:33

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because I was gonna ask about like that. That must have been emotional because it's an emotional day anyway, right? One of your children getting married and you add that into the mix, that duality that you talk of, you would love your wife to have been there. But that emotional pride of of seeing like all of your children on that day like mad What? Like, magical in so many in so many ways, but also Like, yeah, you described it really well. Thank you. I'm glad you're pre empting. My questions to John, thanks.

Unknown Speaker: 15:08

You're, you're inspiring your energy is inspiring me. So well played.

Ian Hawkins: 15:13

Thank you. I did what I didn't want to ask a bit more about that. We talked about there with that, with all the goodness, that's come from the grief. Yeah. How did you deal with the inevitable guilt around that around finding a positive element of your life? On the back end of that? I'd almost like it almost sometimes feels like directly as a result of

Unknown Speaker: 15:35

Oh, absolutely. You got you. So you start off, like, for me, I started off in anger. Right. And I was bloody angry. Right. And, and I understand that now in particular, because, to be honest, men don't have a vocabulary around expressing a complex, you know, nuances in terms of emotional landscape, right? We it's very difficult for us to describe what's going on below a superficial level, right? And so often, anger is our go to language in areas of, of emotional challenge. Yeah, I get it, right. Because anger is protective, right. One of the things about from being a kid with social anxiety, right, which I didn't even know I had, right, until, you know, I'm 55 years old. And, you know, I solved that, like, some people withdraw, some people have clinical anxiety, I solved it by being a bull, and charging and everything, right. So, you know, I took a hat on, right, so, so, you know, I was inevitably going to be in, you know, fights or you know, I'm going to be loud and obnoxious being I was always going to be big, because you're hot, it's hard to be, you know, when you take up spots, it's hard to be worried about the space you're taking up, you know, it's just, and I found, anger really did help. But then that shuts everything off. So the real essential, it puts you into fight flight. And that's no way to live, right? You can get through a few challenges. But if you don't get out of that threat, response, you're, you start manifesting and physically,

Ian Hawkins: 17:28

yeah, it's exhausting.

Unknown Speaker: 17:31

Ah, and you break relationships and connections, you start to become irrational, you start to become defensive. And then you start to manifest the physical responses. Right. So you know, you know, and, of course, to escape that, there are some really unresolvable choices, which is, you know, I had to pull physically away from the desire to drink myself to a stupor and all of that stuff, right. So thank God, I love to talk. The challenge was to find people to talk to Yeah, no one wants to talk to a bloke who's seen everything, everyone's got a, you know, the level of discomfort, comfort was palpable on everyone's face. So when you walk up, and you talk to someone, you know, well, and all you can see is them wanting to get out of there. Because you've got this huge event. You seek other other options. So the next thing I had to do was to work out where I could find conversation. And in that conversation I found out with because I had a young daughter, I was had an opportunity to connect to women's support. And women talk about an emotional thing. So I discovered a way to share some stuff to get some stuff off the hill. And that started me going from anger to curiosity. And I look at it like I don't think there are any atheists on the crushing plane

Ian Hawkins: 19:06

here, Michael,

Unknown Speaker: 19:09

but I was, who was I angry at? Right? Like, I was angry at my wife for leaving me. I was angry at my kids for burdening me. I was angry at someone for leaving me in this position. Right. So when she was sick, and I was bargaining when she's gone on ARM yelling, but I realized when I when the anger sort of died down that I found a spiritual place. Because who was yelling at?

Ian Hawkins: 19:43

Yeah, that's a great point. So see, did you go then from the guilt to anger really quickly, like is that was that kind of how you dealt with it? Or was that avoid was my

Unknown Speaker: 19:56

response? Oh, yeah. So that's a great point. Anger was my response to guilt. Right? Because like I felt it immediately, like the first thing, after we'd been through chemo and the or after the exhaustion of riding this roller coaster of illness and pain. My wife was in incredible pain as a husband standing there, right? Being completely unable to offer relief. That's my job. And the fact all that when she passed, I was actually relieved, right just courted me. So I had such guilt about that because my job had been complete. Like she when she thanked me when she looked up and thanked me. All I could feel was my goal I have I am so short of being a blokey. Right, I'm, you know, I could carry her I'd die for it. But I don't have that opportunity. I would have felt better dying for it. than her thanking me.

Ian Hawkins: 20:56

Yeah. The point that you made, then, that's it's not well, it's that I can remember. Well, sorry, you dropped out there for a second. I thought you'd finished.

Unknown Speaker: 21:08

Yeah, no, no, no, good. Yeah. I had to come up with.

Ian Hawkins: 21:14

Yeah, relief. And it is part of the process. And then and then all know that, like, there can't possibly be relief. But there is, what if for whatever reason, whether it's like the, if they were sick on the buildup, whether it was something else in their in a relationship, like whether it's a parent, or a partner, or a brother or a child or whatever, it's, there's just, there's a stress there. And when part of that is no longer there? Well, of course, there's going to be relief. But it's like, yeah, grappling with that. So so how did you

Unknown Speaker: 21:52

work everything as a bloke, you know, like, I committed to protecting my family, I recognized that I was the, you know, I was the the protector, the provider is a strong one, right? Everything about that situation, confronted my masculinity, right, as well as my, you know, like, heartbreaking, but you're also like, feeling completely useless, right? And no one wants to be in that space. So yeah, relief was and then relief. And then guilt is tied up with that, because you have, you just feel like you haven't done everything I I'd say, Oh, look, we're gonna, I'm gonna gather you up. And we're gonna go to Lourdes and pray if we have to, right. And I got to do none of it. I was like, a useless spectator to, to, you know, the damn wall busted, no, I could do was stand there and watch, right.

Ian Hawkins: 22:46

And I think just thinking about that, now, it's like, we can only do the best we can with the resources we had at the time. And usually what happens is we learn all the resources after the fact. So it's, when you're going through it, and particularly the aftermath, which can last for two days or 20 years. It's just giving yourself a life pass that you only knew what you knew at the time.

Unknown Speaker: 23:09

And that's like that, you know, I know, we're, we're sort of on this arc, but that's where I am. That's where it took me to now. Right? The idea that what's the purpose of having that lesson? Right, you know, if it's not to, you know, to catch someone for, you know, who was, you know, flowing down out of control down the river of that experience. And what I'm going to do is I say, I've learned to swim. So I'm going to dive in and guide you not stop you. Because, you know, life is inevitable. We're not unstoppable. But I'm just gonna, you know, we're gonna go and float down together.

Ian Hawkins: 23:51

You mentioned you now helping people with suicide prevention. What was their thoughts of that through that time?

Unknown Speaker: 23:58

Yeah, I had done. I had, I lived on a with abuse of Pittwater over in the northern beaches, right. And at three o'clock in the morning, it's beautiful. But there's it's also dark and. And enticing? Because to be honest, the Suicide is not about wanting to die. It's about wanting to get away from pain. Yeah. And you know, that I was going to wake up early the next day and be faced with experiences that I was struggling just to keep a hold off. Right. And I was going to be faced with my own incompetence, my own despaired pain of loss. And he's a he's a little aside quickly, I discovered that I was mostly grieving, not my wife who in many ways It was still with me, right? Like we parted on good terms. almost straight even though it's horrific, right? Yeah, I didn't, yeah, there was no loss of love. In fact, it was probably at its greatest, you know, in our relationship, or 27 year relationship that was the strongest, the most I've ever felt love for. But that's what we did. But she wasn't there. So she couldn't contribute. But what I didn't grieve was all the plans I'd made all my life, you know, my, the ease of my life, my expectation of getting up by yourself when you have been with someone for 27 years, is miserable, right. So like, I craft I grieved, it was grief for me. Not for her. It was for what I was missing out on. And I so there's a sense of, you know, by that, John Yeah, well, like that's, you know, then your job is to put put through, but at night at three o'clock, when you're looking at into this beautiful cold landscape of dark and moonlight, you go well, you know, if I go now, I don't have to wake up, I don't have to hurt, I don't have to struggle, I don't have to feel incompetent, I don't have to feel overwhelmed and hopeless, which is the key area, you know, I had no, I didn't belong to someone and something now I wasn't a partner, I, I felt completely lost from that connection. So until I could put myself back together and gain some identity. I was vulnerable. So I was often thinking about suicide. And it's interesting, you know, what keeps you going is not is not what you think it's not, you know, in many ways, I thought as I am, I'm, the kids are better off without me, or the, you know, the world is better off and I'm miserable. I'm always sort of struggling, I'm angry. I'm, you know, I'm not very competent.

Ian Hawkins: 26:53

That's a great insight in itself, just there. Like, it's not what you're thinking. Sorry. Keep going.

Unknown Speaker: 26:58

Yeah, I just spent. Okay. So what keeps you is just these small, little Latins of light that come into your life from people. You know, just like a conversation. And this is what I would tell the other people who are supporting someone in grief. There's not just go with your heart, there isn't a script that you need to follow to talk to someone. I remember, put it this way, one of the one of the things that still resonates with me still beautiful, was I came home one day, and I just had a shit day. It was quite it was a few months after my wife had passed, and I was struggling. And a mate who I coached his son at footy, who's now in the Aussie team, but a mate who was this wonderful landscaper and great guy, but I came home, he was in my garden. And he just landscape, the oh, I can revitalize my front garden. And I just run this what's going on? And he just goes, Oh, I just thought you needed it needed a bit of a tidy up and that my he just like, he didn't have to say anything. He just didn't want anything. Yeah, we didn't have this. We had a great we had a friendship, but he didn't have this great rule. Like we didn't sit down and discuss it. But just that that was enough to anchor you know, those kinds of things happened periodically, or you know, people unexpected will just reach out, you know, you pop into a shop and someone goes, Oh, John, I heard about it, you know, and then you get a coffee for nothing, right? It's just those little things are gestures of heartfelt connection, that that kept that kept me alive.

Ian Hawkins: 28:47

And if we go back to what we talked about before, like, what's the right thing to say? The right thing is action.

Unknown Speaker: 28:54

It's anything that your heart tells you to do. And it could be popping in unexpected. It could be, you know, drop, you know, putting a plant in someone's garden. It could be a cup of coffee, it could be a quick hug. Or a conversation, right? And one that is, you know, a brave conversation, right saying, Hey, we're going to talk about something you want to talk about, even if it makes me upset.

Ian Hawkins: 29:26

Awesome. Oh, yeah. Because that's the right people obviously, obviously, obviously, not just otherwise, therefore, often. They they're not sure how to deal with it. And it's uncomfortable for them. So rather than be uncomfortable, they go Oh, can't make any decision and they opt out altogether. Yeah. Which is what you described there when, when they were stealing you said there people were standing there looking really like I couldn't wait to get out of it.

Unknown Speaker: 29:49

I couldn't I only you could say it and it's interesting because people are there to comfort you and you end up doing the job for them. Right you end up using your life. I mentioned resources to letting them off the hook. Right? I almost felt like saying, don't, don't, don't comfort me, because I'm too exhausted looking after you.

Ian Hawkins: 30:12

Yeah. And I've heard people describe this before. It's like people say, Oh, I'm so sorry for your loss. And then you go, No, it's okay, like a new site, come for them. And then so back to front, but that that's how many would identify with that.

Unknown Speaker: 30:25

I like you literally have limited resources to hold yourself together. And like, you can't blame anyone because like, I get it, right. Yeah, like the heart. You know, they want to be there. But they just don't know how or they've never practiced it or whatever. And so they turn up. And it's so draining. It's not unusual for like, you don't hear it articulated. But people often people pull away from being supported during that period of grief. Right. And I think it's that right, I do not, I don't have the energy or the awareness to support all of you guys while you're trying to support me. So go away. And I just went, it would be so much better for us to, to learn some of this stuff, particularly as kids, if I can just one quick anecdote there was there was a beautiful lady at my school. So when my kids my oldest was at in year seven, now the the year, manage the year, teacher, coordinator, advisor, advisor was this lovely lady, and we spoke because of the challenges of of having a 13 year old, going through this experience. Tragically, her beautiful daughter passed away a few years later. And she was only 15 At the time, I think so. And it was like this incredible tragedy. So my, my second son was in her her year. So you know, I had this, I had this experience, we went, so I took my son and his mates to the funeral. And at the end, you know, there, there's kind of this service was so impactful, but that, you know, the family line up and people will walk past and offer their thoughts, right, which is just excruciating. But my boys were lining up, and I said, you got to say something. Because as a teacher and as friends of her daughter, right, it was really important that, you know, that they connect, and I felt, and they're looking at me, and they're going, what do I say? And at that moment, you know, like, I, it's still difficult for me, but I'm saying, Look, even if you say nothing, all you do is look, look her in the eyes. And you just, you know, whatever comes to you as like, just make it real, you know, even if it's a tear, or just, you know, just grab your hand and just be there and just show yourself that and show this, what you're feeling being be brave about that. You know, and you could say something like, I don't know what to say. Which is exactly, you know, completely connecting, right? Because no one knows what to say it's being authentic. Anyway, so the boys did, and they did a great job. I was proud of them. And then I suddenly realized it was my turn. And she looked at me and said, Does it get any better? And I went, Oh, my gosh, and I, you know, I thought I was being the champion, because it triggered everything in me and I was a mess. So I didn't know what to say. So this way, man, we need practice of this, we need to teach it, we need to share it so. And those boys, you know, they're better off as a result of that experience. Well, in the past, we've tend to keep young people away from that, right and dependent. If that makes sense.

Ian Hawkins: 34:00

It does very much so. And even though like just what we were talking about before I know you've been through it. You're nothing prepares. And you just got to do your best in this situation and know that everyone else is doing the same. You just touched on your children, like how have you navigated that, like being now being a single dad, them going through their own grief or you're battling with yours? Like what's been the biggest challenge and the biggest? I guess learning through that? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker: 34:30

Yeah, it's so it's a time of reflection for me now, you know, because they're all so now they're 2825 and 22. Just becoming 21. So the youngest was five, right? So this idea of getting them through, right. I'm very, I'm really proud of them. And I'm really proud. A little, you know, a little sheepish, but proud of what we've done together. Right. But the learning is it's there are two things, they're both children incredibly fragile and incredibly resilient. So, you know, there's so, you know, they're so capable of, of holding themselves together and getting through this the biggest influence on their life is is me, it was me, right? So when I was angry, I was not serving them at all. Right, I was just and I was a real challenge. Part of the part of the thing about that having the kids was that I needed, I knew I needed to learn. So, you know, I sought wisdom where I could, some got in and some didn't, some took a while, while I now know, is I made a mistake, not sharing my set of my sacrifices. I didn't in I kept them out of decisions, I made a mistake about doing that. I showed them basically, I pretended to create a life that I felt was like, have little impact to the right. So I, you know, I sort of I set I compensated by giving them things and, you know, like, making their physical existence, you know, as relative. Of course, that caught up to me, because essentially, your grief made me crazy. So I ended up being diagnosed with complicated grief syndrome, and then making all sorts of awful decisions, which is another story because having losing everything I, I understood, I had, you know, I was pretty in a pretty good place, materially, but losing all of that actually gave me the final keys to the lock, right of connecting truly, and honestly, to the world, and particularly to my kids, right. So I made the mistake of not sharing, because they of course, are impacted, right? I could not make it go away. Right? They can't You can't lose your mum, and just go, oh, well, Dad's fix that, right. It's like, it's not like you punch a hole in the wall, and then you just put it there and the plaster paint over, and it's all gone, right? Nothing, nothing compensates, right. And there was no way anything I could do say or give them compensated for the loss of their mom. So the fact that I was trying to, you know, create, create this existence where your mum was unnecessary was actually painful for you. And it created a distance because I wasn't being real, with my life and suffering, right? That's like, my pretending about being crazy, didn't feel anyone, all it felt was they weren't being invited into my worlds, right? They were, they weren't welcome, which is so far from the truth. I thought I was protecting them. And I was actually not. So. And the big thing, one last thing, the big thing is asking, you know, sharing, sharing the situation is great. Putting a burden on them is not. So for me, when I said are you gonna help me out with this, that that was abrogating my responsibility. So you know, not, you know, I didn't need them to live my life, I just needed them to know what my life was. And for me to be honest and open about it.

Ian Hawkins: 38:51

And still do the best you could with what you knew at the time, right?

Unknown Speaker: 38:54

I forgive him, I said, myself, I'm sad that there's, you know, but I'm not dead. Right? So I've got no time and I can be as good a person now as possible as I can possibly be. And as a consequence, bridges will be built. Yeah. And look, you know, we're good together, we're just distant and what it's not like, if I was my dad, he would think that, you know, this family dynamic was a bit gooey, you know, a bit soft, because he was a ratbag. Right? And like, you know, emotions were unwelcome in our world. Right. Now, I'm seeing here, we're all that I know, I'm able to do a med circle and say to all the men in that circle, I love them. I want to be able to and I can say that to my kids, but there's still that awkwardness. I just want to be closer to my kids. Right? And that's, that's something that's a project in progress. And it's not a problem. It's just where we are, right part of the journey and as a consequence Every decision is the best decision we make, as you so rightly point out, you know, the, the assumption is I'm making decisions with the best resources and understanding I have. And so I can forgive myself and then but the awareness, what's on me is for me to then say, well, if I know more now I can do more now.

Ian Hawkins: 40:22

Yeah, that's great point. I don't imagine you ever get to the point when you're a parent where you've worked out that whole dynamic, like it just be constantly learning the whole way along the journey, right.

Unknown Speaker: 40:35

And I'm sure you and I have had the same thought, mate, where I wish I didn't know this. Because it is, like in ignorance, there's a sense of, like, Let's go fishing. Right? Yeah. Like, that's parenting. Right. So

Ian Hawkins: 40:53

yeah, it's for me to turn up as a thought of I wonder what life would be like if I hadn't gone through all of this, because because when you get the really challenging moments of it, then you're like, Ah, man, it wouldn't be worth going back to how it was but then the reality when you unpack that is no chance. The

Unknown Speaker: 41:15

quarter arm I have, you know, I have a kind of stoic philosophy now. So I call it a modern stoicism where I try to bring in all of the wisdom that I've gained and put fitted into stuff. So you know, I'm not on you know, I don't want to be a martyr. I want to be an informed intentional, you know, grounded individual right as a bloke, which means that I'm I'm okay with being in the box as a bloke, right? Whether you know, because I still love you know, rugby and a good stash or whatever, but yeah, but at the same time, I recognize that there are other aspects of being a bike and I can be cultural, I can be nurturing I can be vulnerable. Right? And that to me is is opens up the whole world of me the completeness of me as a man. Right? So I don't miss understand that, you know, the old me. I just realized that I choose to be the new me because it feels good. And it's actually the sense of I much prefer a loving conversation with a good bloke, then I do with this old posturing, you know, like, are we going to end up in the carpark type stuff right? Does that make sense? Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 42:33

100% And yes, that can be challenging for some people because they've used to it being of not feeling good so that's become the comfort but ultimately, why would we not want more of that because the because the bad the stashes the fights they're refusing to buckle our on our thoughts and opinion and needing to be right. That always leaves us feeling bad on the other side of that

Unknown Speaker: 42:56

they'd like it some I remember the very first time I drink scotch you know, everyone I've never been a Scotch drinker was never meant to be in you know, in my system. And everyone was raving about it said why do you taste a good one? And I remember my grandfather gave me a scotch and I seriously had never tasted anything as bad as that right? Yeah, you know and yet you know all these blocks the entire you know environment where they're all knocking this Scott back and raving about how the experience and you were left with sitting there going, you know, not it wasn't just about not enjoying the taste of it right there was not fitting in it was not real. It was like all this stuff. I go crack easier. Now. If someone gave me a Scotch I go, Look, I love you, but I'm not drinking that shit. Right. I like I like feeling like I'm not I don't want to vomit. Right?

Ian Hawkins: 43:52

With you there. I remember doing that when we do travels in Scotland, you know, straight from the source. And what makes it Wow. And I'm like,

Unknown Speaker: 44:01

yeah, it's not it's not me. Okay, now for me not to be me. Because it doesn't diminish my experience. And it doesn't diminish my love for them. I don't feel disconnected just because we're not doing the same thing. And that is for two blokes getting together. It means every guy is a potential friend now instead of a potential worry.

Ian Hawkins: 44:24

And of all the gifts that could be the greatest to just to be comfortable to make your own decisions that's right for you. Without having to think about can I fit in? How's this going to someone else gonna react to all those different things?

Unknown Speaker: 44:39

So true. I like I always knew like my wife saved me from my childhood. And she now had saved me from my manhood. Right? So you know, I would I owe everything to her Eve whether she's here or not, right? Just a memory has driven me to Different place.

Ian Hawkins: 45:01

And the Goosebumps I got when you mentioned that says that she's she's there, she's there all the time.

Unknown Speaker: 45:06

She is and what I also discovered is I can love is inexhaustibly expensive. So, you know, can I, you know, Can I Can you be in another relationship and love in fact, I'm informed in Love By My by what I've worked out as a result, I she taught me what, you know, the great greater nature of love. And I've got that willing to, you know, ready to give to other women, right and relate in relationships and stuff, you know, up to this point, I've never been, you know, in a, I've had wonderful relationships have taken us to some point. And the nature of seasons is, you know, is something I also learned, but that's a different podcast. But the the, the, the the love that I have out of this is the report that, you know, that tells me good and bad is not is its own is not really an appropriate measurement of, of significant life events like grief is the beginning of a journey that has every type of ripple, both good and bad ripples.

Ian Hawkins: 46:19

Well said. You mentioned you were diagnosed with complicated grief, that is not something I've heard about. So can you explain what was going on for you and what that actually means

Unknown Speaker: 46:36

to DSM? The DSM five is the the psychologists Bible, right. It describes clinical conditions. And I think they've decided grief is, you know, a clinical diagnosis up to a point but they say everyday grief isn't there isn't you know, is just life. But once it gets to a certain point of disruption, they need to put a diagnosis around it. That really annoys me, but at least when you've got a diagnosis that can help by you know, sort of it makes descriptions easier. We don't need, I don't need a podcast to talk to a doctor. What so complicated grief is described as grief that doesn't subside in a few months, and continues to interrupt your life in certain ways. Now, I think that is the dopest definition ever. But yeah, like it's going, Okay, I've just lost my wife, but it's been six months. So now I'm pretty much happy to get on with shit. And I just go look at some people might be in that position. But like I guarantee not one person who has gone through that without significant changes being, you know, evident in their life. Right? So for me, I repressed a lot of grief. So over time without processing that because of anger and stoicism, and all of those kinds of blokey box, man box things. I didn't I didn't process it. I thought of it. I've thought of it as a you know, I worked in corporate IT. So I often you know, if you had a full system shut down, say, you know, your system down. When you come back up, you turn on the the emergencies system comes on first, right and gives you very limited function. But the lights are on and the doors are open. Right? Yep. And then slowly as you get on top of whatever caused the problem, you know, systems come back on in. But each point they come back on, you are again in the problem, right? So as you as you process enough things, say to turn back on your, you know, future thinking right as a system, right? Oh, maybe I can make plans, switch it back on and then you go, Oh, crikey. I'm thinking about the plans we used to have now. So you're constantly dealing with different things at different

Ian Hawkins: 49:11

times. Such a great metaphor. It's especially that first bit you said when the emergency power comes on, and you're functional, but there's a whole lot of things that are working so good.

Unknown Speaker: 49:25

And like people look at you and they go oh, the lights are on the doors are open and they go oh, okay. Your beauty right? And you're gonna Yes, right. All you can say is yes, you got people Oh, are you feeling good? Yeah, he Yeah, pretty good. Because there's no other responses, no new until capability to understand where you are. All you're doing literally is keeping the lights on.

Ian Hawkins: 49:47

What strikes me there is that every single person that I've helped, which pretty much means everyone in the world would be the same. We're all experiencing complicated grief because To say that in two months is enough time to work through, not not even just the actual event. But it's everything related to the relationship with that person, or that situation or, like we'll get more on to your you're leaving, you're leaving your corporate career in a minute. But like, of course, things are going to be continuing to go on because there's so much depth and so many elements to it. And if you have moved on in two months, well, then my thoughts would be, you're actually just ignoring all the other stuff that's going on and you haven't healed at all.

Unknown Speaker: 50:33

I can tell you about that. It's so true. Until you're about three years down the track. I still doing my corporate job, you know, I still was getting tough, right? I started. For the first time I was I started going, I didn't know how to date. So I started doing things like speed dating, just to find out why this guy, the prospect of relationship. And I had a, I drove to work one day. And there was a lot happening, right. And I was feeling out of control. I sat in the car. And I had this feeling I had no idea what's going on. But I thought I was dying. So I was having a heart attack, I couldn't breathe, I couldn't, couldn't move. Every breath I took, I wasn't sure I was going to be able to take another one. I now know I like I bet found out that I was having an anxiety attack. But just the idea of an anxiety attack was anathema to me is a bloke who, you know, kicked us he didn't suffer from anxiety. But that was an i Absolutely. Identify that with you know, as I started sort of the contemplation of having another relationship that opened up, I'd switched on that potential intimacy, system. Yeah, and suddenly, all of that anxiousness and stuff coming back. And now it's a really complex situation. But that was three years after I'd lost my one. I'm sitting in a car park, and I couldn't move for five hours. So I actually got to work in the morning, set my car for five hours, turned it on, when I finally got a sense that I wasn't gonna die. I turned it off and drove home now. And that took me out. It took me ages. And that sort of that started me going to a psychologist. I was having conversations. But interestingly, you know, I wasn't switched on for psychologists, either. I wasn't prepared to share everything with a psychologist. Right. So it was an important step. But it wasn't, you know, it wasn't enough at that time. So they talked about complicated grief. Right? That's when I got diagnosed with complicated grief, because it's three years down the track. But for me, that experience was brand new. Right? I'm just switched on that ability to feel right. So I had been operating on autopilot in that area. Right. You know, for three years, I'd never dealt with that. It just come up,

Ian Hawkins: 53:08

I would suggest and you can tell me if this resonates or not? Is that probably longer than three years. Because if you had that moment, just as your wife's passing of feeling that unconditional love, then there's probably a fair past of, of not switching on those emotions at many different times prior to that, as well.

Unknown Speaker: 53:29

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And in fact, you. And a few years ago, I realized that I hadn't dealt with all of the complexities of that. So I pulled myself out of the, you know, because like the one thing you do when you have a relationship that's long term, and then you lose your partner, you expect the first things you do is expect relationships can be like the one you had. Right? So you know, and of course, every relationship is different. You connect with people differently. And so you're getting understanding that and processing, your willingness to have a different model and have a different experience. You know, so it really just a few years ago, I stepped back and said, I'm going to I'm going to keep on going to focus on working this out, you know, so what I went through only a few years ago, where I started to said I I'm just going to work on, on on not needing to be in a relationship. Right. So for the first time in my life, being satisfied that I have to be alone, right, because up until that point, right i i was either desperately trying not to be alone or I wasn't alone. So

Ian Hawkins: 54:51

can we talk a bit more about that because as someone myself who's an extrovert and has had that dependency on on others, able for validation and, and connection, all those different things, my shift away from corporate was a journey into, I'm spending a lot of time alone and be able to make peace with that and actually being okay in my own company and pausing long enough to experience whatever was coming up. And it's Yeah, despite all of that, you know, the office or the teams or all those environments I love, we're really just an avoidance tactic. So. So if we, if we look at that through the lens of what you're doing now, what's the important message for men around that? Because I know so many of them are feeling lonely, they're feeling isolated, even living within a family unit? What What can you shine a light on for them to help them through that and take steps to change that.

Unknown Speaker: 55:50

So I'll start with a warning in response to that, right. And this was a piece of sage advice from a grief counselor years ago, because she just told me a piece of effect, she says that most women respond, when they lose their partner, they will couple up for long term within eight years. And most men will couple up within eight months. Interesting. And I, that really resonated, because when I, when I was honest, I sat down and had an honest review of my position. I went on looking for PA I'm looking for a nurse, childcare, cook cleaner, you know, Mental Health First Aid operator, you know, find an accountant. Right? And not to mention, you know, a bed, you know, a bedroom worker as well. And confident. And I said, Okay, or I'm looking for a wife. Right? And you know, I know, it was misogynistic of me. But I'd said all of those gigs I could pay for, or I could get married, right? So I can completely understand the attractiveness of that. Right? Yeah, I've coupling up. But I I realized that is not a respectful way of connecting with someone. Now I get it, you know, like the love and appreciation that people join together for lots of reasons, right? And that, you know, and love comes up as complicated. Who am I to tell them whether they're, you know, what love is. But what I would ask them to do ask men to do is, is to at least be honest with yourself about what is motivating you towards a connection? Because when I looked at that, I realized, no, I needed to be much better, just like the work you've done. I needed to be good alone first, before I really was capable of connecting. And I needed to be intentional about the emotional side of it. Right? Why am I getting here? How does how do we work going forward? And it has to be greater than the it's not about, you know, Tom Cruise has a lot to answer for in, in that, you know, You complete me, because a person shouldn't be completed by their partner, they should be challenged by their partner. Right? They should be expanded by their partner. That's my take. Right? And, and that really served me well in terms of understanding how to kick so I've often worked with men to just say, hey, yeah, let's take a look at this where we are now. What is really needed? You know, what are you after? For? Are you after regaining something you've lost? Or are you gay? Are you after bringing something new into the world?

Ian Hawkins: 58:56

Yeah, we overcomplicate it. And yet, that's sometimes as simple as it needs to be. What are you wanting to do anymore? Or what do you want now?

Unknown Speaker: 59:05

Yeah, and I was think, forget about, you know, putting a list of requirements out there for a woman, when you are the man you would like to, you know, you would like to be the woman you know, who who is ready for you? comes into your life, right? So, so renovate yourself, not put out a list of, of, you know, Bill of articles out there, right, you know, like, you know, we don't want to build materials out there saying, Oh, I'm looking for this, this and this. Say I am this, this and this.

Ian Hawkins: 59:35

Yep. Don't Don't chase butterflies create the garden. The butterflies.

Unknown Speaker: 59:40

Oh, so true. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 59:42

So good. Now, how do you go then from being in a corporate career to then helping men the way you do now? Was there was there more more moments in and around suicide? I was there was another moment of darkness that that had you motivated to change and then realize that actually, we need more help in this space?

Unknown Speaker: 1:00:10

Yeah, Insight format. Yeah, there was. So the journey begins when you are when you lose everything, you know, to be you, right? So you've got to really put put yourself together. Complex, I don't know how I managed to sort of step into that. But you know, and while still surviving that, you know, that journey to the cliff, I'm not allowed to say that. But, you know, my own ideation took me to an edge. And as I said, those little moments kept me going. And I had enough conversations to start saying, Well, I can, I can, I can hope, again, which helped me which anchored me going forward. So when I would get up with hope, and say, Okay, why don't my chat task is finding out more about who I am and what I'm going to do, right. So I went seeking, and I had lots of experiences, there's the world is an amazing place when you open your eyes and, you know, stop spending so much time, you know, looking backwards, or go in front of your little focus, right. So I have all these wonderful experiences, and I met people and I expanded my world. And I kept finding things that grew me. And every time I grew a bit, I grew further away from the corporate values that I thought was me. So at some point, a few years later, I'm getting there and going, Man, I do not fit this anymore. This is not me. And I've got this sense. So many men, I'm sure go through this where they go make a choice and say, I'm going to sublimate myself, and accept the fact that I have to take on this corporate persona, because I have obligations, or I feel locked into the financial trap or the hierarchical trap the identification, I am a corporate guy, my parents knew it, you know, I went to uni, my friends. Now I wouldn't be accepted. If I change. All of that traps you into this and you feel like I have to be this. And when my authentic self is close to this, but I'm going to shut that down. I'm going to stay there. I think that is a recipe for illness and death.

Ian Hawkins: 1:02:26

100% agree with that.

Unknown Speaker: 1:02:30

So I decided to live. And I stepped into and some people think it's brave, but I thought I had no choice. I was up against the corner. I couldn't keep going, you know, it was going to end in disaster. So I chose to take the money and run. I left. I did not know it was going to be so hard to do. I didn't know just how much I identified as a corporate animal. You know, like, even top talent, maybe Adam, you know, it took me 12 months. And I remember the, you know, slowly I remember the day where I said, crikey is I've changed I've escaped. It was when someone finally asked me, because you know you you often the conversation between men is what do you do? You know, who do you know, what do you do? And when you when you're first left, you'd start you'd be your old self, right? Oh, I'm an IBM manager. And then it was oh, I'm an IT manager. And then it's our I work in IT or then oh, yeah, I'm a consultant, freelance, whatever. I remember I'd fully accepted my new position when, because I was doing a little consulting work and stuff, but not a lot. And someone said, what do you do? And I go, actually, the moment nothing. At that moment, I went, Oh, my goodness, you're out. I'm finally over this right. And that that was that allowed me to then go on different journeys, right. So the journey I then undertook was me and I haven't been through this for nothing. Right? How do I make a purpose out of this? And I became I studied psychology, but psychology really annoyed me. Because it's not about people. It's about diagnosis. It's about statistics about AI and I, I wanted to make, you know, I want to make a difference to a person. So I found coaching, so I studied coaching, and I ended up teaching coaching. And just, you know, I just became completely submerged in the, in the concept of positive psychology and coaching and walking with someone and helping them and I've really, you know, ever since then, so that was about 2000. And, you know, I did some consulting work and stuff. And none of that worked out really well. But yeah, for the Let's say since 2015, probably about eight years, I've immersed myself in personal development, psychology, counseling, coaching. And there's a lot out there. It's an amazing concept. There's also a lot that, you know, people embrace the does, you know, it's a bit Poppy and yeah. But there's no, there's no the good code. Coaching is a powerful, powerful modality, right way to face life. And if you're, if you do the work, and you're good at it, the consequences for other people that work with you are amazing.

Ian Hawkins: 1:05:46

Yeah, and the rewards for self like, we can't shy away from that, like the fulfillment, the gifts, and you would know that right? Like, I mean, I've had people say to me, like, Well, where were you when we started? Well, I was actually about to kill myself, like, like that. Firstly, that shocks you. And you got to tell me this now, and not at the time, but it's like, it's like, wow, like, that's, that's the difference it makes, right?

Unknown Speaker: 1:06:11

Yeah. And I love that. I mean, I, I recently had the privilege of being a keynote speaker at the suicide Memorial, Wellesley missions memorial at the Opera House, right. And it was just a quick speech about the journey, but in that I just, I just realized, like, you know, that my life had been, you know, all about suicide, you know, my mother in law, my father, you know, determined his own death and, you know, friends and colleagues, and, you know, yeah, the kids have kids, I coached and stuff. The list was way too long, right? And what shocked me is not is that I didn't realize it until I sat back and didn't accounting. This is this is, you know, I get this sense of Gandalf. Now, you know, you, we this YOU SHALL NOT PASS, right? Yeah, like this. This is not, this is not not okay. And it's time for me, as I grew in, in understanding of being a father. And as I grew in understanding of being a man, I realized that it's not someone else's responsibility as a man, as an elder as a father. It's, it's my, it's part partly my responsibility to step up and say, you know, young men need need some of the, you know, to hear some of the things I've learned, and all the men need to be encouraged in some of the things I've learned. And and if, if not me, who?

Ian Hawkins: 1:08:02

Yeah, that's a great point. Just something you said before, around the, you know, there's all the different people out there, and different cages, and there's some popular stuff. What I get a real sense of from you is that you do things your way, you've done all the training, but you applied all the knowledge. And to me, that's the bit that's missing. People think they have to go and repeat what everyone else has done. It's like, no, that's just a guide. When you start doing what's in your heart, like you said before, when you're dealing with grief, when you coach or if not a coach, if you're a guide, or a leader or a manager, or a boss, a new take what you know, but then lead from the heart. And that's when the real magic happens. Because you're coming from experience. Yes, you're coming from knowledge and wisdom, but but through your own lived experience, that there is no better training and education than something that you just know so intimately. Well.

Unknown Speaker: 1:08:56

So true. Me. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I find that interesting, right? If I gave you a structures, like all the things about mental health now I was out there, right, everyone's going on five things to improve your mental health. Right? So you know, I go, like, yes, and absolutely no, right. You know, if you take a walk in nature every day, right, yeah, absolutely. That's it's going to it's going to be one you know, small contribution to feeling a little better, right. But if you expect to conquer you know, stuff like grief and isolation and, and, you know, childhood trauma and rejection and you know, all of those things if you expect to conquer them resourcefully as as an individual, by yourself, right? It's, you're going to end up in a place where the hole seems even bigger than when you started.

Ian Hawkins: 1:10:01

I probably left questioning, I followed the five instructions, why do I feel still feel like shit.

Unknown Speaker: 1:10:08

And you become you become pushed away from that common sense, right? So you actually end up making it harder to benefit from that kind of good wisdom. I often think, you know, chicken soup is a wonderful way to restore you. But if you, you know, if it's boiling and fresh and brothy, and you tip it on your head, it ain't gonna help you. Right? It has to be applied in a certain way to be benefit, otherwise, it's just just going to give you more pain. So one of the things men are designed to do is to work together, we are pack animals, but even more than that, we've since learned when we were operating as a group, you know, as a group of elders around the fire or, or as a, as a hunting pack, where we collaborated to, to bring down the resort to bring down the challenge. We've also learned 10,000 years of wisdom and hard won lessons, right? So we can apply all of that we don't have to go back to where we were and say, okay, me, me, me to us and right. Now you can say, hey, what do we now know? Well, that instinct is, let's work together. But let's work together in a modality where I'm going, one bloke is going to add offer some real support. And it's going to be targeted, and it's going to be empathic and it's going to be non conditional, right? And the idea of, and here's the other big thing, clinical resources are necessary, and they actually do a great job when you're mentally ill. Grief is not mental illness. distress is not mental illness, when a relationship breaks down. That's not mental illness, when you lose your job and feel lost and alone. That's not mental illness, right? Men go through these things every day. And they don't, you know, clinical resource can help. But it's not, you know, the power of connection of conversation of care from another bloke, right. So one of the things I think we use as an avoidance tactic is to talk to women. Women, women are wonderfully articulate at this stuff, right? And they will nurture you, they'll do that they'll share that recognize you, and all of that you can sit there and you can go back to mom's mom's lap. And that does not suck her a man right. Now that's a boys solution. Right? Now, I don't know if this is controversial or not, it's just real for me is that I want to take men to a man solution where is where all where the warrior, the king, as well as the, you know, as well as the lover in the magician where we can stand up. And we can be completely open, vulnerable and soft. But also I don't lose my ability to run a company just by seeking help.

Ian Hawkins: 1:13:06

Right? Yep. And that was my experience by getting guidance from women in a way that was actually keeping me emasculated and not allowing me to have the drive and the discipline and all of those different things. And that was a real shift for me to realize that, that how far I'd gone down that pattern. Now this might interest you to know that it was actually another female helped me realize that and got me back.

Unknown Speaker: 1:13:31

Because they're incredibly wise. are amazing creatures. I love I suspect they we need them more than they need us. Right? But

Unknown Speaker: 1:13:45

but in the same time, either like I now. And I had that same experience where I was sitting there and I'm going well, this is fantastic. And yet at the same time, I realized it wasn't what I was really needed next. To find the company of men, again, was a joy as well as you know, a challenge. Because to be honest. This is not our conference space, like what the conversation we're having here is rare. Yeah. And I wish it wasn't, and I wish but our dear friend of mine has looked at me over a beer and said, John, can't we just talk about free? Right? You know, you know, it's not easy to do this, but it is so worth it. Right? And I'm going to challenge every man thinking about this to say, Okay, let's have an experience of it. Let let me help find conversations that are a little deeper and see how I feel.

Ian Hawkins: 1:14:42

Yeah. And if you're not ready, even if you're just listening to this, then you're already getting the benefit. And that's to me, that's one of the reasons why I'm doing these interviews and particularly with people like yourself who are doing this work, because if you're not ready to have the conversation well down for showing up here unless Seeing and our intention, I'm sure same for you, John, is that you get whatever you need out of this to take your next step.

Unknown Speaker: 1:15:07

Yeah, absolutely, I believe in seeding, you know, I don't need to see, unlike my corporate persona, I don't need to see an ROI. Right, I what I want to see is, I have the faith that my truth will will germinate in soil where it's needed to grow, right. So I feel like I'm throwing the seeds out there, and some will die, and some will grow.

Ian Hawkins: 1:15:37

Just different different ROI, see the return a far more valuable?

Unknown Speaker: 1:15:43

Well, the the community will benefit from every young man, I get a chance to talk to, I just hope, oh, maybe they'll grow, they'll take that back into their world. And, and as a consequence, you know, we are energetic beings, the force a man has goes way beyond our, you know, our current sort of personal space. Right? And, you know, it's up to, it's up to men to step up to solve some of the problems. Right. And that's, you know, it's got nothing to do with fat feminism. It's got nothing to do with, you know. You know, whoo, food stuff, what it has is, do you want to be like, Stop, a real man thinks beyond his own castle and starts looking after the landscape? Yeah, that's what my I believe.

Ian Hawkins: 1:16:37

I love that. And it ties in with two things that you've talked about a fair bit, which is the ripple. And, and that impact that you can have as a man, and it's that's it, right? It's like, that's the, that's the energy and you can look at it from a scientific, spiritual or whatever perspective. But that's the impact that we can have when we stand up and actually stand for something stand in our power, and allow other men that permission do the same.

Unknown Speaker: 1:17:02

I love it. I love it. And I remember a mate of mine who looked at me and said, because I've changed so much since he told me, he said, Was it worth it? And I go, absolutely. Every time doesn't help. Yeah, it does.

Ian Hawkins: 1:17:23

John, where can people get in touch with you? Where can people find out more about what you do? And then also, maybe tell us a little bit about what you do.

Unknown Speaker: 1:17:34

Fabulous. So you're mentoring men is is the I'm a part of the mentoring men team, I trained men in mentoring, which is really exciting. So you know, in the last 12 months, we've we've trained about 600 men or last 18 months, we've trained about 600 men, and all that, all that training is simply about you that listening if you can care, and if you can listen to another man, if you can care about what who he is and what and what happens to him, you're ready to mentor right? It's like the conversation is a therapeutic device, not You're not a therapist, but you are having something that can be therapeutic. And that relationship is can change a man's life now it can be as simple as, as being a bit of a wall to bounce a ball against for three months or it can be about you know, take undertaking an offering something that was missing from a man's life right and that relationship can then go on and some of our mentors and mentees have been together for years. And that changes right they grow into you know, friends and partner you know, and and well conditioned you know, they have this world condition support frame. So mentoring is a really powerful experience for one bloke and it's not it's not a broken experience. It's not like you're coming from a broken place. You know, you literally if you you know if you want to improve your golf game, you go to go to a golf pro if you want to, you know if you want to get fit, you go to a fitness trainer. Well if you want some some better new options in life, go to a mentor right and mentoring men is available that website which is just mentoring men.org.au has got all you need to sign up and information. I also coach I like on the northern beaches, Northern Beaches, man is a Facebook page. So if you just if you just search for Northern Beaches, men

Ian Hawkins: 1:19:44

search in Sydney for those places.

Unknown Speaker: 1:19:46

Yeah, sorry, Sydney. And you know, it's a remote way of connecting there's 1100 men on that place and it's not just Northern Beaches, but you know, there are both physical and online things that we do. I would and if you want to Ask me I can give you a local resource right because there is so much going on that is supporting about good blokes talking to other good other blokes. Right. So things like men's walk and men's table and Men's Sheds and Mr. Perfect and Mungo men and all these things for all this stuff is going on, right and I can give a bloke a heads up if he needs just needs to connect or even check it out. Right? All I'm asking for is that blokes just open their minds enough to check something out and see if it works for them. And then directly I'm I coach men most of the time talking about getting you know, getting back on manual like I don't it doesn't it's not a lucrative gig when you when you just when you're a community coach, but I just love either, you know, either chatting to a bloke who's just looking for a bit of backup or helping a guy find something that works for him. And he You can reach me on Facebook or LinkedIn. And John Milan coaching is, I think the website's down, but it'll be back up soon. But yeah, that's a, there's some way to get in, I am so excited with the opportunity, right just to connect and share. I do mean circles and stuff. And every one of them just confirms that this is the direction we should be going in. So I hope other bikes can get a chance to find that certainly saved. It's certainly it has saved my life, right? Being able to connect and to follow this path. Because in recent times, you know, like once you think about options, you often get to a point when you're really struggling and you're in pain. It's not unusual to think of, well, I want to get rid of this pain. It's a genuine choice. It's not. And the thing that saves me is knowing that there are other options that I'm I'm still willing and ready to explore.

Ian Hawkins: 1:22:03

Yeah, well said, John, he talked about, you know, connecting with good blogs, great to connect with you. You're a good bloke, and I so much appreciate all that you've shared. And this was a really powerful conversation, particularly for any men listening and any people who care about men. So thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker: 1:22:23

And you, this is a fabulous thing you're doing man, I love your work. I I have a copy of the Grief Code, and I'm really impressed by it. So and I'm just very grateful to have this opportunity and chat. And you've been so easy have let me get you know, say whatever. So thank you for that.

Ian Hawkins: 1:22:40

You're welcome. Thank you again. Cheers. Cheers. Bye.

Unknown Speaker: 1:22:44

All the bits.

Ian Hawkins: 1:22:46

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform