Living Life Feeling Like An Outsider with Alison Rodden

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the Ian Hawkins coaching.com and let me know what you found. I know the power of this word, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

You ever experienced bullying whether that was at school or over different parts of your life, then you'll take heap out of this conversation with Allison Rodan Allison's a copywriter. And it's a perfect fit for given the life she lived. And the escape she used to find in reading books. She experienced bullying over the course of four years of school and escaped by reading and seeing that world through the lens of other people's stories. Perfect fit for what she does now. But she also talks about how she lost self esteem. She lost confidence when she was older, she turned to drinking, how much that became a crutch that she relied on. And that's something I can relate to a lot from my own story. And if you've ever been on that journey, whether you've then relied on a particular vehicle to prop up your confidence and then want to come out the other side, then you'll love this story. She shares openly about the challenges and and also about how she's been able to pay that forward and help other youngsters going through similar challenges. Enjoy this chat.

I'm a big fan. Alison, we both oddballs and enjoy Alison, the oddball copywriter. Hi everyone, and please welcome this week's guest Alison Rodan Allison, how i

Unknown Speaker 2:43

Good how are you?

Ian Hawkins 2:45

Very well. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. I'm really looking forward to this. You are the oddball copywriter and I was just saying before we hit record what I know of you, that's actually a perfect fit. Where did you land at the title? The oddball copywriter?

Speaker 2 3:04

Well, it is kind of a fun story. So the guy who taught me copywriting His name is Richard Fletcher. He's from Northern UK. We were working together on some things for Instagram. And I was telling him how like Gosh, I'm all these copywriters I follow are so out there, they're vacationing in Bali, and they move, pack up and move to Thailand. And then they are on these crazy vacations living the laptop lifestyle. And he said, Well, actually, you're the one that's kind of weird because you live in middle America and your mom and you don't do any of that stuff. And you're like driving through cornfields and whatnot. So you're the oddball. And that's how I kind of just kind of stuck from there.

Ian Hawkins 3:56

Love it? Well, to me, that's not how I was thinking about it because it was more from when we did a certain marketing program together. And we had the same oddball humor. So whenever there was something that was very sarcastic, and, and subtle, or was always you and I laughing and there's a couple of others. So why kind of oddball? copywriting, we'll come back to that. Okay. But we want to get into your story. And so when you were describing before we jumped on, it's something that I'm sure many can relate to. So you want to tell us how that unfolded. You say in your bio, you're a high school dropout. But that wasn't something that just happened that sort of unfolded over a few years before it came to that right.

Speaker 2 4:47

Yeah. So I went to a school that was very small. I think there were about 67 ish people in my graduating class. So we all knew each other since kids kindergarten, it wasn't very often that new people came to the school. So your friends that you made in kindergarten, tended to be your friends all the way through your school. So when I got into eighth grade, my parents had actually decided that they were going to pick up and move us to Colorado. And I was really upset. It did not want to leave my friends, I had like this perfect little small town life going with all these people I had known forever. And so we went there. My dad moved, and then my mom and I followed. And when we went to go see the middle school there, it was huge. It was in Golden Colorado. And, you know, hundreds of people per grade much bigger than I was used to, and I wouldn't even get out of the car. And I said, I'm not going to school here. And my mom said, Well, if you don't go to school here, and we move back home, Dad's not going to come with us. He has a job here. And and so we'll be going alone. Is that Is that what you're deciding here? And you know, being 12 years old, like I guess so because I just want to see my friends, I want to be with my friends. I don't want to go here. So we ended up leaving, we went back to Illinois, where I'm from, and I was so excited to go back to school. But I had missed the entire summer in between seventh and eighth grade. So my parents had done a couple of things to try to tempt me to stay there. I got to go see Bon Jovi the Slippery When Wet tour was like awesome. And, you know, I saw people like smoking pot there. And it was just a wild and all of this. So when I came back, I was hurt. And felt abandoned, because I had spent the whole summer alone. But I didn't necessarily want everybody to know that. So I talked and talked about all you know, going to this concert and all the cool things I did in Colorado. And the end result was that my friends decided that they didn't want to be around me anymore. Pretty soon after we came back. And I think I was at a Halloween party at one of their houses. And it was a big sleepover like the whole friend group seven or eight girls were spending the night. And in the they were acting weird all night. And then in the morning, they gathered together and told me, We don't like you. We're tired of hearing about your concerts. And all of these awesome things. Why don't you just move back to Colorado? We're not your friends anymore? Well, well. Yeah. It was pretty crazy to hear him. And I couldn't accept it at the time, I thought, well, they're just mad at me. And I can fix this, I can change the way that I talk and the things that I do so that they continue to like me. So I called my mom, you know, to come and get me whatever. And as the year went on, I asked them, Is this just temporary? Can we be friends again soon? Or, you know, is this forever? And they said, No, we're done with you. We don't want to know you anymore. That's that. And prior to that I had been fairly outgoing. And not friends with but friendly with everybody at school, and enjoyed school. And once that happened, it just completely. I mean, it crushed my confidence, obviously.

Ian Hawkins 8:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2 8:59

They there were a lot of letters written to me about, you know, describing in great detail what they didn't like about me what parts of my personality were just awful. And not

Ian Hawkins 9:11

just bullying. Like she went to the lengths to write letters. Yes. A lot.

Speaker 2 9:17

Yeah, I mean, it was, it was hard. I never wanted to go to school every day. I would get read get up and get ready. And then I had would stand by the back door to go outside and catch the bus to school. And my mom would start to open the door and I would just hang on to the doorframe and say I don't want to go I can't go and I feel horrible for that. Now being a mom myself. I think she has as much trauma over this as I did. And she didn't make me go very often. I was they like to publish at this School the people who missed the most days per semester, I don't know if it was like an attempt to shame you into coming more or whatever. But I was frequently the top of that list for days missed. I just would not go.

Ian Hawkins: 10:15

Well. Yeah, public shaming? No, I don't remember that happening in our school. That's all.

: 10:21

Yeah. So I was on that list. But at the same time, I was also in the top 10 of my class, and getting letters in the mail, like inviting us to potlucks for the Honor Society and whatnot, that I would promptly throw it in the trash. Because there was no way on earth, I wanted to go to that school when I didn't have to be there. I didn't really want to go there when I did have to come here. So basically, this all happened in the very first part of eighth grade. And from then on, I really never talked again, at school, I, you know, the typical didn't have anybody to sit with at lunch. If I could, I would go to the nurse's office instead, during lunch, nobody ever chose me in PE. I mean, you've heard all these stories a million times that happened to other people. But for me, I was so crushed by this, that I just assumed that the things that they had told me that were unlikable about me and made me unlikable to anybody. So I didn't, didn't attempt to talk to anybody.

Ian Hawkins: 11:36

So can you remember, like, your emotional state back then? Why were you just in a constant state of the I don't know, if we associated with depression, but you must have just been down a lot.

: 11:51

Yeah, I, I would often get in trouble at home for not doing my chores, because all I did was read. Because when I was reading, I could escape and not have to think about what was going on with other things. So from from the time I would get up, you know, on the weekends, I would read all day long. And same thing, when I got home from school until I went to bed, my nose isn't a book all the time. So I was, I'm sure very depressed. And there wasn't really counseling as much back people didn't talk about going to counseling or getting help or healing or anything like that. And also, the school did nothing. My mom attempted to have them step in and stop some of the things that were going on. And they just said, Well, you know, it takes two to tango. And she said that there's like seven of them. And one of her. It's not just to, you know, can't you stop this? Can you do something? And this was long before people filed lawsuits and all these things. So they really weren't interested in doing anything about it.

Ian Hawkins: 13:13

So through all of this, your dad's still working away?

: 13:19

Through a big part of it, yes, he, he did eventually move back. But I cannot remember exactly when that was, maybe when I was around 15. He'd moved back to Illinois.

Ian Hawkins: 13:33

So at the same time you're experiencing this was was having him a way unsettling as well, you were so consumed by the what was going on school didn't have this bigger impact?

: 13:44

No, it was also strange, because I didn't know I didn't understand why he wasn't home with us. Because he and my mom were not divorced. They're still married. So that was yes. A strange thing going on.

Ian Hawkins: 14:04

Is it something you've made? Like you've processed at all now? Like was it was that was that something that was hard for your mum and dad as well?

: 14:11

Um, it probably was as an adult. Now I think about it more as he did have a really good job opportunity there. Yeah. So, you know, I think it was more of a financial thing than anything else that he was out there. And it was just that it wasn't that it was a secret for me. It was just that. They probably told me that and didn't think it really warranted any further explanation.

Ian Hawkins: 14:40

Except when you're a teen, you overanalyze everything right? Especially when you have more time to yourself.

: 14:46

Is that supposed to stop after your major?

Ian Hawkins: 14:52

Yes, well, we'll go we'll get into the overthinking side of things because I think it's something we can both relate to. But what I'm particularly drawn to is, if you are spending all that time reading, you must have learned why to me, it just makes sense that you're a copywriter now, right? You must have learned so much about language around. But you talked about escapism, you're obviously reading things that were that were had the ability to detach you from your current reality. What did you learn about yourself and about writing in that time through going into those worlds where you could escape the current reality?

: 15:36

I mean, I just learned that this is by far the best coping mechanism for me, no matter what's going on, and I still do this, if I'm super stressed out, or something's really bothering me. Or like, I can pick up a book, usually, and then just go away from it for a while. So it really was learning a coping strategy.

Ian Hawkins: 16:05

What is it about? What is it about that space that is does help you cope so well.

: 16:11

I think I imagined myself in the story. Like I've, I don't know if everybody thinks this. I've heard other people think it. But when I'm done reading a book, it's almost like I'm in mourning. And often, I will just start it from the beginning again, because it can't stand to be separated from the characters.

Ian Hawkins: 16:33

That's, that's for me. That's when a TV series that I've really enjoyed finishes, and it missed them. Yeah. I miss Fonzie Jakey.

Unknown Speaker: 16:48

jumped the shark it's over.

Ian Hawkins: 16:51

The more you go back and look at that show, the more ridiculous it seems. I guess. So. To me, what you've talked about there that imagining yourself in this story. It just struck me that that's actually a big part of us finding. purpose in our life, is when we start imagining yourself in that situation, and what that particular character might need or what they should do or what what will unfold next, then we can associate with other people going through the same thing. So if you think about, like how the lens that you see the world through now, is that? Do you see it through that same way that you are imagining yourself in that situation? So in your work, for example, you're imagining yourself in that business to be a writer, you haven't thought about it that way?

: 17:52

Um, no, I do. Definitely. I particularly enjoy writing stories in trying to sell things. So I think I definitely see myself that way. Try to get somebody to escape, even if it's only for four seconds reading a Facebook post, or I often try to make people laugh. That's, that's definitely an aspect of my personality that comes out the strongest is that, like you were saying, Before, people don't know whether to take me seriously or not. Almost all of the time. Even when I am serious.

Ian Hawkins: 18:32

Yeah. Your boy says, you into kung fu. Now. me knowing you. I'm like, okay, that's funny. I like that. But then no, you actually do kung fu. Yeah. So yeah, my default was, that's a joke.

: 18:47

Right? What are you talking about? Everybody was not kung fu fighting. Yes, they were.

Ian Hawkins: 18:53

Come back to the Kung Fu. And we'll come back to the writing element too, because I want to hear more about the story. So you go through that bullying for what how many years? I must have must have that must have dragged on those years.

: 19:11

Um, well, what ended up happening? And it's weird, because large portions of this are like completely blocked out of my memory. So I don't remember hardly any details from high school, which I think is kind of odd. But I remember the general theme of it. So by the end of eighth grade, my mom had called some of the other moms and ask them can you you know, can you tell ask your daughter to quit writing these letters and saying things to her school? So that did actually stop by the end of eighth grade. And what took its place was that they treated me like I was invisible. They do was just like, you know, if I walked past them in the hallway or saw them, which I did several times a day, it was like they had blinders on like you're not over there. So. And what I really wanted more than anything was to be friends with them again, like I was before, so that was just painful. But there's no, there's nothing you can do about that, you know, they're not actively so that lasted until my junior year. My birthday was in is in August. So I turned 16 in August started school. And I went for about two weeks, and I thought, You know what, people don't have to go to school anymore when they're 16. And I hate this effing place, and I'm not gonna go here anymore. And so I whatever class I was in, I feel like it was trigonometry or something. I waited until it was over. And I got my stuff. And I went to the office, and I said, I'm quitting school, what do I do I need to sign something, or what do I need to do?

Ian Hawkins: 21:06

Even the dream? Yeah. And there?

: 21:09

Oh, well, you know, go in the counselor's office, and I thought, Oh, they're gonna have somebody talk to me. Because through all of this, I'm at school, and nobody talks to me in any class. You know, there's, you can't tell me the teachers didn't know this. And because in a small school, they know that, oh, they're finally going to ask me, you know what's wrong and why I never talk. And no, I that they just wanted me to sit in there for the rest of the day, it was in the morning. Because, you know, they get tax money every day. For kids being at school. Nobody ever talked to me about it. And at the end of the day, they did call my mom. And of course, she was like, Well, you can't just quit school. And I said, No, I'll go to this other school. You can just enroll me there. Of course, inside thinking never, ever have like, I'm done with this school. So and there really wasn't anything. I mean, I guess she could have tried to force me into staying but she knew as much as I did, how painful it was, it was for her too. So I went home. And that was that. I did go to a drop out school for a while, which I can tell you about if you want it, but

Ian Hawkins: 22:35

what's dropout school? Oh, man. It's not that's not a real nice, surely

: 22:41

no, alternative, an alternative school. I told that it dropped out school. But but as far as my regular high school, you know, I'm like, just had gotten invited to something the week before for being like, the third or fourth top in my class. And I come into the office and quit school, and they have nothing to say about it. So that just kind of cemented like, well, I don't care if I'm here, either. They probably also don't like me. You know,

Ian Hawkins: 23:10

it's staggering, as you said they would have known Yeah, it's would have been so obvious. And yet, they did nothing like staggering.

: 23:22

Nothing. And and I've just seen recently, I don't know probably because I've been talking about it some. So I'm seeing all these posts in my feed about bullying. And people saying like, gosh, bullying so much worse now than it used to be. And I'm here to tell you no, it isn't. It's the same as it's always been. It might be more visible because of social media. But there have always been bullies and there's always been kids who have been bullied since the beginning of time and they were always be there.

Ian Hawkins: 23:59

I would disagree as well. Like I can remember school like just copying it from all angles, actually telling them one of those stories like first year advice first time and went to the canteen in high school. I got someone got me in a headlock and demands I give them my money back. Yeah. But then also, I was bullied and I was the bully. And it was just commonplace across the school like if anything, the visual part of it now here's what I would imagine would have reduced it rather than rather than increase it because we all used to happen when no one really either. They didn't know or was just swept under the rug like you're describing.

: 24:47

Yeah. Well, and I'm a mentor for girl that's in high school. Now. I've been with her since she's been in third grade. And even with all of the zero tolerance built leaking stuff. She's been bullied since I've been meeting with her. And there's been varying degrees of caring. She's been to a number of different schools. And the first school she was at, they didn't care at all. And they knew I talked to them about it. I couldn't do anything. You know, I'm not her parents. So just say, Gosh, I saw this while I was here today. And they Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, she's really good at taking care of herself. And I would just be boiling with rage. But what can I you know, I'm

Ian Hawkins: 25:37

how, how have you been able to help her because I imagine that you that you'd be the perfect person to be able to guide her through that,

: 25:47

um, I hope I am I, I do what I can. She deals with it. Very different. I did. When went inward and became quiet, she lashes out, and she gets in trouble for that. But I kind of am in awe of that. Because I was always terrified that somebody would hurt me. I wonder if I go to school and somebody beats me up today, I don't know what to do. If somebody starts a fight with me. I've never been in a fight. And that was on my mind every day. And it I never was physically bullied. It was all, you know, more emotional, mental type of things. Which I think is pretty common for girls type of bullying. But hers this girl that I mentor, she, she is a different breed altogether. And she definitely had one incident where she had had enough and she took matters into her own hands, and physically punished, shall we say her the layers? And I gotta tell him when she told me it was all I could do. I had to look away and look up and not look at her because I wanted to laugh, because what she did the kids fully deserved. But what I told her was, you know, they didn't end up getting in trouble for it at all. And she did. And I said, Well, you know, maybe if you hadn't reacted that way, they would have gotten in trouble. But saying that didn't feel right to me, because I don't think it's true, I don't think they would have. So I don't know that for sure. But as far as helping her deal with it. What I do for her, I am not supposed to talk to her about things unless she brings them up. I'm supposed to be acting as like a trusted adult friend. And I only see her at school yet. So I come there one hour a week to hang out with her. And we do whatever she wants to do. So we do crafts, sometimes we exercise. Sometimes she just shows me her like anime games that she likes to play. So my role for her is an escape one hour a week, because I think to myself, gosh, if I would have had just one hour a week that I knew that somebody would talk to me and like me at school that might have made a big difference for me.

Ian Hawkins: 28:27

No doubt. And it's interesting to use that word escape, right? Yeah, helping her the same way that you had to then rely on a book to do a powerful, and I imagine just having someone that to listen, if she wants to talk or not just whether she decides to or not, would, would be just so safe for her given. Like even as adults, sometimes it's hard to find places to talk, right. Amazing. What you described there about having no memory of it. You said we had I think it's fairly normal. I think people block out a lot of stuff when they're going through all of that it's their, their brains way of shielding them keeping them safe from whatever pain because I imagine that whole time would have been extremely difficult. And, you know, from my experience, it's why people have got big chunks of their memory that they just can't remember. Like I used to say when when my kids were young, there's kind of a big block there of time where where the memories really hazy, but actually thinking back it was also the same time just after my dad passed away. So that's probably got more to do with it than Well, the sleep deprivation certainly wouldn't have helped but the the The body just created incredible coping mechanism. So I think most people will be able to relate to that. Now, you drop out of school. And what you're describing is house that a life unfolded for me was holding fun fun for you was something that I can relate to myself. What did what sort of transpired then over the next however many years as you as the impact of this flowed through into your adult life?

: 30:32

Um, well, I really, I really was still very cripplingly shy. And I figured out pretty quickly that if I had a few drinks that really helped with that quite a bit. So I got a I had a full time job at the local gas station. And that helped with my procurement of alcohol quite a bit. And I eventually got fired from that job for that very reason. But that was something I really, really turned to when I was a teenager, not to an extreme amount, but I knew if I was going to be at a party or whatever, I would definitely drink. Otherwise, there's no way I would talk to anybody. And as I got older, I went through periods where I didn't drink as much. But then once I got let's see, I'm, I met kind of a new group of friends. And we were all in college, and like, okay, gay, let's party and do all these things. And like, oh, yeah, this is fun. I've never gotten to do this. And there was a lot of drinking then I had started smoking several years before. And I never really quit that college party type of lifestyle until I got pregnant, which is when I was 38 years old. So I went on for way too long. But I think, you know, that was my way of coping with not just that trauma. But the things that came after that I still had that feeling that probably nobody liked me. I had a lot of bad traits, I needed to be quiet, and not say what I was thinking, because that was probably annoying. Those things that I was told when I was 12 years old, and admittedly by other kids who say they don't even remember, you know, that happening. stuck with me for it took over 30 years for me to realize that I still had a wound from that and even begin to start trying to heal it. And and get over that.

Ian Hawkins: 33:11

Yeah, and like I said, I can relate to a lot of that shy kid, but really an extrovert. Funny, alcohol actually was a tool I can use. And then it yes, I'm been becoming a tool that I use for way too many years after one and a half. If this resonates with you, but it was like, you miss out on certain things growing up. So then when you discover a new world, it's like I went to everything. There was something on if there was a drink on if there was a party on one of my different friend network networks, there were a sport or a uni or school or whatever, like I was, I was there. And that became the real trap the FOMO I had to do everything. So I was always busy. And I just kept me in a place of repeating the same patterns through work to the weekend, drink Forget it all women do it all every year.

: 34:08

And for me, a lot of that caused issues with my work because I started having corporate jobs when I was just 19 you know, trying to that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a bigwig in the in the corporate world and make a lot of money and then I would show those people that you know, I was I wasn't a loser and that I could do things and I was smart and partying and staying out till three o'clock four o'clock in the morning. Turns out does not mix well at all. With getting up and trying to go to work at seven eight o'clock in the morning and sitting in a desk all day.

Ian Hawkins: 34:51

No it does not.

Unknown Speaker: 34:54

My first few jobs did not end well. By my chair Waste, shall we say?

Ian Hawkins: 35:03

Yeah, I would say you are lucky because I tend to do jobs that almost enabled that behavior.

: 35:11

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely was trying to live two lives. There didn't work.

Ian Hawkins: 35:20

So what sort of work were you looking for? At that point? Was there a specific skill set you were bringing to the table even then?

: 35:26

I'm not really. I mean, when I was 19, I, I didn't, I had my I had gotten my GED when I was 17.

Ian Hawkins: 35:42

And I translate for the Oh, for the world.

: 35:48

The General Equivalency Diploma

Ian Hawkins: 35:53

finishings finishing,

: 35:56

yes, basically, like, if you can pass this test, it proves that you could graduate from high school. Got it, you wanted to? It's a pretty long test. And so I got that, and then that allows you to be able to go to college, but not, I wouldn't have been able to get into like a university that actually makes you apply and cares about what's been going on before. So I started at a junior college. So when I started working in my first corporate job, I was in junior college at that time, and went to school at night, worked in the day, and eventually worked all the way through. I got my bachelor's degree, and was on corporate job number two by then.

Ian Hawkins: 36:54

degree in what field?

: 36:56

Oh, geez, this is almost embarrassing. But it was also practice for being a copywriter political science, like the biggest joke of a degree out there. So but I wrote tons and tons of papers. So turned out to be useful much later in life.

Ian Hawkins: 37:19

Yeah. It is amazing how often these these pieces of our story, when we look back, just go Oh, actually, that fits perfectly. So you've always had that interest in writing? Have you done any other writing through those years beyond what you had to?

: 37:42

I really didn't. Not at all. And interesting thing I even went at one point, like during, I think my heaviest drinking period, I didn't even read for a few years. So I was using Red Bull and vodka to escape rather than books.

Ian Hawkins: 38:06

That would have helped the sleep patterns to I'm sure, yeah. So what impact did that then have on the rest of your life? Like if you are going through this same pattern like?

: 38:20

Well, I never a lot of their relationships, friendships and every kind of relationship that I had just weren't good or solid. And I always wondered, like, Gosh, why can't I make friends because I lived in a different city. And nobody ever wants to call me and do things. They'll do something if I ask or beg them to, and they're friendly enough. And they just were kind of superficial. And never real friendships. And you know, my, my marriage was none good, not based on a lot of truths and, and things like that. So I was even though I wasn't alone, I was still very lonely.

Ian Hawkins: 39:16

And can you see the patterns of the impact of what you went through in high school then play out in those relationships?

: 39:23

Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, it was it was definitely I think still a thing that that I was the underlying I'm not good enough. And nobody really likes me theme playing out over and over again. And me sabotaging things when I needed to. Sometimes I didn't even need to because I would attract people that were just you know, the kind of people that were going to make me feel that way anyway.

Ian Hawkins: 39:54

What did some of the other sabotage look like? What sort of things did you get up to?

: 39:59

Um, Just a lot of unhealthy eating. And I mean, obviously, drinking as much as I was and smoking cigarettes and just gossiping, I always say I really didn't start to mature at all until I got pregnant and quit drinking. So really just kind of living at an early 20 Something life for like 15 years.

Ian Hawkins: 40:31

Yep, can relate to that. It's amazing the difference kids Mike's right realized this story on this podcast, I've told him and other ones, but my, I remember getting very bleary eyed when my oldest, was quite young, and got up to give her a bottle nappy change. And then back to bed, hopefully, she would get back to sleep. And she rolled off the change table. And I just sort of grabbed into space and just got enough jumpsuit to keep her off the ground. For me, that was just one of those moments of like, gotta be better than this, like, just a real moment of looking in the mirror again, like, oh, calling myself all of the names that you can imagine. So was it? Was there one moment that had you realizing you need to change? Was it? Was it a build up of a whole lot of moments that or was it just the Okay, I'm pregnant, I need to make changes or having to make changes?

: 41:32

Well, for for a woman that gets pregnant. It's almost as if you don't have a choice, you do, unfortunately, have a choice. But for me, my moral baseline and code was very strong. My parents are not drinkers they never have been. And, you know, I was just raised that I'm pregnant. So I'm done drinking now, at least for the next nine months. So I had no choice as soon as I found out. But that moment, when I found out was not joyful for me in any way. I was devastated because we had an you know, it was a Friday. And I had been at work. And I was sitting next to a good friend of mine, and she was actually like, eight months pregnant at the time. And I told her a few symptoms I had been having lately. I'm like, gosh, I don't know what the deal is. Blah, blah, blah. And she said, um, you should probably stop and get a pregnancy test on your way home. And I said, What? No, like, I'm, I've already you know, we're not having kids. And this is not the deal. And she said, I think that it might be. So I did, I stopped on the way home and it was like, didn't even take 10 seconds to turn positive. And I cried and cried and told my husband, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, guess what? Well, he was excited and started calling people instantly and I could barely talk. And so that I had no choice to be like, well, he's sold his dad and I better call my mom and and I was, I was bummed because I'm like this now what? Now? I can't have drinks anymore. Now. I can't party anymore. This is over. And I was in mourning for that. Yep. Which, now looking back, it's like, oh, my gosh, I should have done this, like 10 years before I did, because it was the best thing that ever happened to me. And I love to being a mom once he was born. But that initial feeling was not a happy one.

Ian Hawkins: 44:07

When you become pregnant, there's a lot of stuff goes on with your bodies and and your mind and everything. Like adding that to the mix. How challenging was the first stages of pregnancy or the whole pregnancy?

: 44:20

I think I cried on and off pretty much every day for the first four months, at least. Yeah. And then after that, I was like, Okay, well, I guess we're gonna do this. I mean, I'd rather not give birth ever but there doesn't seem to be a way around that. So we'll just won't think about that for now. And you know, then I got into decorating the room and it's like, okay, well I can see where this will work out. This is gonna be kind of cool. And then I went into labor and like completely freaked out like No, no, no. Somebody just put me out of my misery but

Ian Hawkins: 45:07

but then that moment that they were born,

: 45:09

we have we all survived. When he was born, I didn't see him for about three and a half hours after he was born because I ended up having a cesarean. And the, I don't know if this is true or a myth, but I was born a redhead. So they say, I've heard that redheads need more anesthesia or pain pills that they be to work. So I had had an epidural. And I told them, This is not gonna work. I said, Oh, we just boost your epidural for the Sirian. And I'm like, Well, it took like, two, three hours for the epidural to kick in and work when I was in labor. So I don't see how that's gonna work. And then they said, Oh, trust me, it will, while we get in there, and they start cutting into me and you're like, like, you're being pulled, then you're down. And I'm like, I can feel that and freaking out, but you can't move like you're paralyzed from the waist down. And then where you're not paralyzed, you're tied down. And they there's a sheet right in front of your face. It's like such a weird thing. So anyway, I was flipping out, and they put me all the way under. And then they cut my bladder. So I had like, they had to repair that and whatever. So anyway, I woke up in the recovery room, like three and a half hours later, had note like, what just happened? And like, did I have a baby here? Always all? Yeah, rubbed up nonsense. But when I saw him, I didn't. Like everybody talks about this rush of feeling and emotion. And I had none. It was like, Huh. And then I was thinking like, man, what is wrong with me. And I later figured out it was, but the hormones and all of that. And I had a pretty severe case of postpartum depression also, but and I've, I've heard of other like, I didn't tell anybody this for a very long time, because I thought, Oh, something is severely missing. And me because I hear all these other people having a baby and they're like, oh, it's the most precious thing. And I was my reaction in my head was Hmm. So that's what he looks like. Okay. That was very bizarre.

Ian Hawkins: 47:54

Now, whether it's in circumstances like that, or other moments in life, I think that many will relate to that moment of, you know, the typical reaction in different situations. And when, when your own reaction is one that's very different. Yeah, that's where you go, like, what on earth is wrong with me? So how did you make sense of that, and process that in the coming days, weeks, months.

: 48:24

I just had like, crushing shame, and guilt. And I was overwhelmed. I had this medication schedule I was supposed to keep up with to keep the pain at bay, but in order to do that, I couldn't wake up in the night with him. And so I'm trying to like cut back on pain meds, and then I'm like, out of control because I'm in pain. It was just hard and, and it felt overwhelming. I felt very ashamed of myself. And very less than and luckily, my mom came and stayed with us for like, almost three weeks, I think. So I could sleep and he and I, since I had had the extra surgery and my bladder. I got sent home with a catheter. Oh, for like, days, that was awful, too. So I was in a lot of pain. We had a big crazy dog that had to be walked it was just it was hard. And I've and I felt like I wasn't doing enough and and like I was never going to be able to handle all of it ever. A night thinking like, Gosh, what's wrong with me other people have babies every freaking day and just carry on and why can't I?

Ian Hawkins: 49:57

Because no one talks about what's really only on the rise You get a mother's groups or whatever, everyone's trying to one up each other and say, what's what's really going on? This is like, almost like a competition instead of actually going. Alternative shit. What do I do now?

: 50:15

And I was in one of those moms groups too, or people are like, Oh, you fed your baby this oh, you know, judgment, you heathen. So So of course, I went down that path for a while too. I made all of his food, it was all organic. I think trying to make up I couldn't nurse I had planned on nurse do an extended nursing, I had it all set up. And I didn't even know it was possible. But I didn't produce any milk, which I found out was likely due to the traumatic birth thing. So that was like, what what is wrong with me? I can't even do this thing that is supposed to be natural. And every, every mother will tell you that like, oh, you had these plans. That's funny. Work. So that it wasn't anything different. But I did. You know, it was a really hard, hard time to get through. But we got through it.

Ian Hawkins: 51:21

Because you have to write when you're a mom, you've just got to get through.

: 51:24

Yeah, you have no choice. Yeah. And that. That was really when, when he was born and started growing up and interacting with other kids, when I thought, Gosh, I'm not over this thing that happened to me all these years ago. I hadn't thought about it for a long time. And I was going to a counselor. And I think that my son was in preschool at the time. And I started talking to her about how scared I was for him to start kindergarten and go to public school. And I just started crying. And I cried for like an hour. And I can't even tell you why I'm crying. I don't know what's wrong. And she said, Well, I think that this might be something with your schooling that you're, you know, projecting on him. And I thought, well, I better get this dealt with them because I can't be putting all this fear and all these things on him that I'm feeling about school

Ian Hawkins: 52:33

isn't amazing when when we have these things that happen to us in life, we just bottle them up, we suppress them, we don't acknowledge it. But I don't know if you remember how you felt but I've had moments like that where I've just the tears have started you can't stop them. And it's almost bittersweet experience like Why am I crying? But this actually feels good. And was it such a relief after that?

: 53:04

Um, I don't know if it was a relief because I remember feeling pretty terrible for the rest of the day. And it but it was really interesting to me, I like to often look at things they do and say oh, look at that. And I thought gosh, I have literally not thought about these people for years. Although I am friends with some of them on Facebook, but you know, I don't I just don't think about them. I thought that healing from something was like well that's been 30 plus years ago, so I'm over that now I'm I'm healed from that. And I didn't realize that that it mentioned had to actually do some kind of applying some sound to it and maybe putting a bandaid on it or something to really be healed from it until that day so it was pretty interesting eye opening thing that just came out of nowhere

Ian Hawkins: 54:05

I'm a big believer that these things so when we're ready to deal with and we've we've might have dealt with some other stuff that needed to be added got out of the road first and then we're ready whether we feel like we're ready or not what changed for you after that, when you finally had someone who could listen to you and and and help you understand the impact that was still having

: 54:33

it was a very slow change. It took years I just started being I don't know more. I don't know if more strong is the word but standing up more for what I thought was right. And confronting people is very stressful for me and Still, I just had to today. I had to stand up for myself and it makes me feel like I'm gonna throw up still. because I spent so many years not doing that.

Ian Hawkins: 55:11

Yeah, actually write that down. I was going to come back to that. So I'm glad you brought it up the the you said you always had that fear of the fight. That might be that might that might come and I was gonna ask you about confrontations. Now, to me that, like a might have shown up in that time around the bullying, but is it something that if you look back, is it something that you probably already had a fear around?

: 55:35

Probably. I think I'm naturally a peacekeeper? Yeah, go between. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 55:45

Yeah, that seems right. For a recent interview this came up. And I think it was in one of my interviews. If not, I'll share it again. I was talking to someone and they were describing how they had a similar thing going on for them. But they didn't grow up in a family where there was lots of confrontation, in fact, the opposite. And so that the, on those very rare occasions when there was an altercation, it felt so foreign and uncomfortable that they were like, I don't want to do that ever again. I don't want to experience that. So they take that pattern forward. Is that like, is that something you could relate to?

: 56:24

That's exactly exactly how I grew up. There was no confrontation, everybody just kind of went with the flow. My sister, I'm sure she'll listen to this. She was kind of a sassy teenager. So there was some confrontation for her. She's never been worried about confronting people. So I remember some fireworks when she was younger. But other than that, I mean, we just hung out did our thing we didn't have, you know, drinkers and our family, which drinking a lot of times, is what will spur fights and disagreements. So it was pretty low key, we did a lot of laughing and whatever. So yeah, anytime there was something I just didn't want to deal with it. I didn't want to be around it. And it felt bad.

Ian Hawkins: 57:18

That phrase that you said, You know what, what's wrong with you? I don't know if you used these exact words around the bullying. But I imagine it would have been similar conversations to yourself of like, okay, well, what's wrong with me? How have you been able to? And I will say this, having been someone who asked that question myself, there is still times where I asked myself that question. So how have you been able to get better at dealing with that question? And if it doesn't, if it still shows up? How does it show up? And how do you deal with it?

: 57:54

It shows up in a lot of different places. So it shows up in my work? Where and this is really common for other business owners. I know because I'm friends with a lot of them where I have impostor syndrome and think, oh, gosh, what am I doing? There's so many other people that can do this so much better. And just in the last year, I've started really noticing when I've met people or interacted with them online, that I might think right away, like, oh, gosh, they've got way more together than I do. Of course, why wouldn't they? And then if I start to talk to the more in depth, I think I don't just think I know, okay, this is they're just putting out a better front than I do, I actually have a lot more knowledge on this subject than they do. And I do deserve to have a place here at this table. And actually, they should be the ones asking me for advice, because I've done more study in this area, and I've got some good information that can help them.

Ian Hawkins: 59:03

Oh, I love that. And to me, if you go back through the story that you've described, like everything that you've done has led you to this point with learning about the power of writing the the you get value from the silence, like the dealing with what's wrong with you, like you know what it's like to be that business owner you can write through that language to help them to be able to share their message in a more powerful way to other people who are going through similar sort of experience. I absolutely love that and, and what you described there many, many business owners, but I probably just anyone in any sort of job when when you have that inferiority complex or impostor syndrome, as you said, how often when you actually start talking to people, you realize that and like what am I worried about? How do I be as confident as them but actually We have the skills to back it up,

: 1:00:02

right? Yeah. And there's the whole. And I did this for years, like, oh, you know what, I'm going to launch my thing. But first, I'm going to take this class. So I'll know this, and then I need to practice it for a few months. And then miss in. I don't know, it's like, well, I can tell you, I think there's one thing in my life that has caused me to move past that. And we've mentioned it a couple times. And it's definitely come through. Just like with a, it's, it's almost like I'm doing what I should have done when I was a kid. And I'm taking martial arts and I'm, I picked up piano lessons, again, that I hadn't taken since around that age. And I'm doing all these things that pushed me out of my comfort zone way, way out. And make me do all these things so that I'm used to being uncomfortable. And it's translating into my work. So I'm doing things that make me uncomfortable there. And it's working out. Imagine that.

Ian Hawkins: 1:01:08

Awesome. And embracing fighting.

: 1:01:15

Yeah. And, and as an added bonus, embracing teenagers, which I have been terrified of since I was a teenager, because there are a lot of teenagers in the class. That's, that was very off putting for me, for the longest time, like, I don't know, I don't do I want to be around these teenagers, teenagers are super mean. Now they're going to be making fun of me because I'm old, and I can't, you know, am I going to be able to handle that. And so that was, I would almost rather at this point, take a punch in the nose than have been around a teenager. I shouldn't say at this point that this shoot last year at this time. Now, I realized that they're actually nice teenagers in the world. Other people may have known that already. I did not.

Ian Hawkins: 1:02:11

Yeah. One thing is for sure, anyone listening to this, whether it's having gone through bullying or something else, is that the thing that we've been stuck on for a long time, it's not logical and, and yet, when we come out the other side, and we learn about it, and we actually then realize that it gives us a new way of seeing the world that few do. So if you look at your writing, how are you able to see things for business owners in a different way than the other copywriters out there in a way that will help them reach their audience.

: 1:02:59

What I'm always looking for is something different. So even though I do write for social media, and I think, excuse me that social media marketing works well. I like to look for, if you will, the oddball thing that will catch people's attention in a way that you know, social media, you've got like a split second to stop their scroll with some kind of shocking headline or, or something really deep that they just, you know, that you could get into their head and be thinking, but if you're doing something that they haven't seen, if not ever, but for a long time, then you're going to stand out. So let me give you an example of this because it's a little bit harder to explain. So we'll use the Kung Fu school. So I'm writing a white paper for the Kung Fu school right now, about its which white paper for those who don't know, is just a research document. It's not a sales piece. But the owner of the school where I go is really, really experienced. He's on the school for over 30 years. And he's a kung fu master, I believe they call it C Fu. And he knows a lot about kids, because he's been teaching kids for a long time. So I interviewed him about how kung fu can help your kids learn to pay attention and develop discipline in them, and how it can really develop a baseline for sports for kids that are playing basketball or football or whatever, how it's really unique and great conditioning for that. So I'm putting this white paper together as a letter from him to say, hey, parents, you know, if you're, if your kid could use more discipline, if they could use more self confidence or if you're just trying to get a really good training base for sports. Martial arts is a really good way to go. And here's why. And here's the research that backs it up. And so we're doing this and it'll be printed out as a letter and actually mailed to people's houses. And it's not trying to sell them anything. It's just telling them, Oh, do you have this problem? Well, you're guessing you might, because you live in this zip code here. And, and it says you have 2.4 children in your house. And at the end, it'll just say, you know, thanks for reading this paper. I hope it was helpful. This is my name. And here's the address of my school have a great day. And when they, when they get that, that that will be different than when I left a restaurant a few weeks ago, and saw four signs in the grass for four different martial arts schools saying, try us for four weeks for $39 Try us for six weeks for $47 plus a uniform. They're all competing on price rise to the Yeah, so I'm taking him out of the price game and saying you know, do you have this problem with your kid a lot of people do and here's the solution that you could try

Ian Hawkins: 1:06:20

love us love it on board copywriting fantastic

we've had this conversation before, but we connected in talking about my cat gonna talk about it no poor kitty. Where we will be on that group call and your cat would present

what a it's actually a friendly gesture. Yeah,

: 1:07:05

she's just saying hello with her little starfish.

Ian Hawkins: 1:07:11

Why Why has the oddball copyrighted not been sharing that oddball moment with their audience?

: 1:07:21

I mean, I'm I'm making a transformation into a crazy cat lady.

Ian Hawkins: 1:07:30

Good. Oh, yeah. Whatever that I just wanted to mention the cat

: 1:07:36

flooring. Yeah, and I can't believe she actually hasn't shown up here tonight either. Shy?

Ian Hawkins: 1:07:42

Yeah, cuz usually when we charge he's straight in. We told him before he jumped on the bizarro world. The cattle nearly the same. We got sons with the same name. You mentioned at 38 was when things changed, like the same for me. 38 was like the moment where I'm like, and I'm not doing this anymore. Crazy. It is. And what I also love is how much of that story I really relate to and turns out, I'm a bit of an oddball myself. So thank you for sharing that and making it okay for oddballs across the world to be a que in that space. I really appreciate Allison.

: 1:08:22

Yeah, I'm, I'm happy to advocate for oddballs everywhere I go.

Ian Hawkins: 1:08:28

Awesome. Where can people find you so they can find more? Find out more about oddball copywriting?

: 1:08:35

Well, you can friend request me on my profile. But I'll warn you if you try to look at my profile on a computer, it's broken. It gives you a broken link, but you can look at it on a phone, Facebook. I've been trying to get this fix for over a year. It is like the bane of my existence. So if you if you look on a mobile device, you can look on my profile, it's a public. But otherwise, I've got my business Facebook page is the Advil copywriter. And Instagram also is Allison, the copywriter.

Ian Hawkins: 1:09:19

Awesome. So if you want to differentiate yourself from the crowd, and not compete on price, then reach out to Allison and find out more. I wasn't I've loved this, or knew it would be entertaining, as our conversations always hate more about you, which I didn't know. So, thank you for sharing. I know this will be extremely valuable to everyone listening. Appreciate

: 1:09:45

it. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was fun. You're welcome.

Ian Hawkins: 1:09:49

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief, let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform