Ep 449 - Turning Pain Into Prosperity with Steve Hall

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back, you've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request, if any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the Ian Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. The message today from my interview with Steve Hall was about self responsibility taking responsibility. And as for the long term listeners of this podcast, you know that it's something I am very passionate about and talk about. Well, Steve may well be more passionate about it, you'll hear in this chat. Just how important that is in your life that how important it's been in his life and having to go through a awful experience where he was basically forced to move away from his family, the fear and the numbness. And when he caught it described like being like a zombie for a good few years, the impact that had on him and then coming out the other side. And all he's learned from that tremendous wisdom here from Steve or particularly his focus around helping men. So if you're a man or you very close to one, then your thing you'll get a heap out of this. Enjoy. Hey, everyone, and welcome to this week's guest, Steve Hall. How are you, Steve?

Unknown Speaker 2:00

Really good. Thank you, Ian,

Ian Hawkins 2:02

good to hear. Just from the initial chat we've had already feeling like this is going to be an absolute cracker. We do similar work, passionate about helping men, particularly those who don't always tend to speak up for themselves. So I'm looking forward to as to opening up that conversation and talking about how important is so I know every person that's that works in this space has their own backstory. So Steve, how, how was it that you came to have a? I guess it's a calling to want to help people in this space?

Speaker 2 2:38

Here? That's a great question. And because is that a calling is that what I was meant to do at the beginning of my life, and I found my way to it or have I been sent down this road for a reason. I'm not sure which one it is. But all of the above perhaps I absolutely love where I'm at. So I'll share the story about how I got here. In another lifetime a long time ago. I had a 40 year career I was working for Telstra in 20 years was out in the field being a linesman. I love that. The next 20 Were I got into management have I got married and had four daughters and we lived in the country. Life seemed idyllic to me, I was content, I was happy. And I thought that this will get me through to retirement and everything will be diddly diddly good, whatever the word, whatever the thing is, and but about 14 years into my marriage, things started turning out differently to what I'd imagined and and I and I got challenged because for the next five years, our family was dealing with a mental illness inside the family. And it ripped us apart because we didn't know that we were dealing with a mental illness. But there was crazy mixed up stuff happening. And just the family got torn to bits and imploded. My wife and I are now divorced. But in in a good way, for a good reason. But this is just part of the story. The other half of the story was during all that and there was a lot of sadness, grief, trauma and everything involved in that. But during that time I lost my job to which was the only steadying influence I believed I had at that time really relying on it. But I had to at the same time I was running running the show in place of the manager who had stepped aside for the time so I ended up having to redundant 25 of my colleagues and turn off that 60 contractors at the same time we've had, you know they needed the business also. So that that was really hard for me to do and I left myself without a job. Luckily, I had a lifeline thrown at me and I was I went for a job but it was hundreds of kilometres away with Telstra again being a manager in another area. So I took that lifeline but it meant moving hundreds of kilometers away from my family is still needed me desperately because two of my daughters were still living at home and in a great deal of trouble trying to deal with The problems that hadn't been sorted out

Ian Hawkins 5:02

how old How old were they?

Speaker 2 5:05

One was 11. And one was 13. At the time, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Why Why bother telling this story is not for sympathy or anything like that everyone has their own story. Like you said, you know, most people in our position have a story. And some of them are beauties. But what this did to me was it left me traumatized that left me broke. I was living payday to payday. And the next job I got was leading teams of people, teams or men. And I really shouldn't have been looking back, I shouldn't have been leading teams of men because I was like a zombie. Or just operating on automatic pilot for a number of years, I reckon, maybe four years, I just managed to put one step in front of the other. And it's like, Groundhog Day was very hard, carry myself through that. But I was too broke not to. That was all I believed I was capable of doing. And I believe my life was over. Because that was when I started to work when I was 15, for Telstra, so I'd invested decades here in getting that power. And I believed I wasn't capable of going and doing anything else in life. So my sole focus was just getting my remaining two daughters off to uni and getting them self sufficient. And I had no idea what would happen to me. And I couldn't plan beyond that. That was just my, my sole focus. So along the way, though, during that time, and after, you know, like four years of just being in fog, and feeling like a zombie, my manager at the time, was a new manager in the new role that I got. He was one of the best managers I ever turned out to have he, I think he knew I was in trouble. And he arranged for a coach to be embedded in our team for three months to improve performance. And he was going to move around Victoria and Tasmania to coach other teams as well. But I'm forever fortunate that he chose my team to do it first. And he said, I was I had nothing right. So anything coming my way was a godsend. And I just said, Yes, please, I had no idea what I was informed that

Ian Hawkins 7:11

you knew you needed it. He said, while

Speaker 2 7:13

she's there, why don't you get get her to give you some one on one coaching, too, because that'll be covered by the tab. You know, what we've engaged if I said, Okay, I was coaching men, then, you know, like, in Telstra, I've been trained in Myers Briggs and all this sort of stuff. And I thought I was pretty good coach, I listened a lot. And I'm motivated. My staff, you know, it was really good. But she brought along stuff that I've never been exposed to before and knew nothing about, you know, like Neuro Linguistic Programming, timeline, therapies, and a whole heap of stuff that just, I wasn't wasn't privy to, you know, so I gave it a go open myself up and I dived in. And that changed my life, because during that time, before she left, she sort of found I think it was like an ember, you know, still smoldering away in my chest of hope that I had this feeling in my whole life that there was something more to me than, you know, I had a greater potential that I just wasn't tapping into. And she found that into into a into a little fire and it caught fire. When she left, it was burning brightly. And because when she left, I said, Look, I want to do whatever she just did, I knew that, for some reason or other what she did was what I wanted to do my whole life. And so it took a few years for that to get me into a stage where I my daughters were finally self sufficient. And I had the courage to leave Telstra after 40 years, like I said, Jump out out the airplane without a parachute. I did that. And I just built the built the parachute on the way down, hoping it's been an amazing journey ever since I broke a belief that I had, I wasn't capable of learning more than what I already knew to get me to Telstra. And I turned around and I got an amazing appetite, which is not quenched to this day of learning. And I just I learned more than that lady knew at the time when she coached me I just couldn't stop. I've gone and added a background in neuroscience and business coaching, one on one coaching, results coaching all hate meditation teaching a whole heap of things. I haven't stopped yet. That's unused of term. I'm using it now. You know, before it was just learning and filling up the bucket. Now I'm using it creating my own programs. And tada, here I am. That was a long answer to a short question. But that's been my journey. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins 9:33

that's a great answer. I've had goose bumps through a number of parts in that. When you were talking about you just from a young age, you just knew you were meant for more. I know so many of the listeners on this podcast will relate to that. That was my experience too. And I know it's been the experience for a lot of them. They they knew there was something else but I'm never we're never taught these things always from young age.

Speaker 2 9:53

That's what amazes me and then I keep wondering, you know, what if we couldn't teach people you know, maybe in high school or something like that, but then I wonder if I would have been ready to listen, see back before my marriage break down and I lost my job and all that stuff happened. If you were to ask me, Do I know what I believe in? I would have said, yes. If you had to ask me, Do I believe in myself, I would have said, Absolutely, I've got this certainty of who I am. But I look back on it. Now, I had no idea compared to what I know. I had the depth of I know myself now, you know, so I had to go through those things, I think, to discover that I had to have those beliefs broken before I could rebuild them. Because every time I really tried to rebuild them, and it's like, the universe will go nuts. I don't want you to rebuild their delight we just broke up for we broke it up for a reason. And they the university ticket around. So I'd have to go back again. And again, sooner or later, I cottoned on through learning more about coaching and stuff, to challenge my beliefs and to dig deep go beyond the feelings into the beliefs sought out the call to stop dealing with the symptoms all the time, and trying to put back what, you know, just trying to get a different result with doing the same thing, you know, they got it and rebuilt my beliefs. And I have so much fun in that area now. And that's, that's what I try and well don't try. That's what I bring to my clients, right. But I'm not sure if I'm gonna teach them if they weren't ready to listen,

Ian Hawkins: 11:18

or 100%. And I'm sure you've had the experience to when people say, I'm going to refer this person to you, they really need it. But if they're not ready, if they're not ready, then you're never gonna work. And Jen, I don't know if you've had this experience. But if it's the partner that's recommending their partner to go, it's usually the one doing the recommendation that that probably needs it more or wanted more, but looking for answers that way.

: 11:44

I've had a couple of them. But I've also had a couple of real gems, where the wife has heard me talking on radio or something like that. And then I get a call from from the partner going, Oh, my wife told me I should talk to you. So we have some coaching chats, you know, you know, I just do that off the cuff, I always like to talk to clients before I engage them. So quite often, it's a couple of hours to talking to see if we're aligned. And so a couple of them have been all for it once they chat, and they find out you know what interested their wife, because the wife is a bit like a coach, you know, it's like they're outside this guy's belief system, and they can see in what he's missing. And that's what we did well, in coaching, we're outside a person's belief system so we can, can reach in and direct them and ask them the right questions. So sometimes it works.

Ian Hawkins: 12:34

Yeah, okay, good call, good call. You said something there, also, you're talking about, well, maybe you wouldn't have been ready, and you need to get to a certain age. Just from my own experience, just watching my children I've been sort of on this road for what 12 years now is, is watching them change and realizing that they've had their grief and trauma at a younger age. And I wonder just now, how often we just keep repeating the same pattern, and it just keeps getting stronger. The problem is, is when we get to, you know, 3540 4550 that happens, then it's so much bigger. Whereas maybe if we help them address it earlier, then it's not. I mean, I don't know, maybe they still have to go through that maybe that's a rite of passage, but I just look at both the mind and see how they're definitely not without their challenges, if anything, they've got plenty from from both, you know, both parents going through their stuff, but they've been able to shift stuff in ways that I would never have been able to because it just it just wasn't something that was done.

: 13:37

That maturity level that kids have got nowadays really impresses me because I look back and I think well I was so naive, I guess when I was when I was their age to a lot of I mean 40s And against I think we communicate face to face better than kids now. They're really smart and they've got a level of maturity but they do a lot of their communicating online. And so you know, they're looking people in the eye and being present for people is a little bit different. So as far as swings around about but what I find is like my my four daughters and myself were and even my ex we're all repairing to this day and I'm still healing but I'm so proud of my daughters I look at them and that their level of maturity is way above their friends growing up through school that you know to that they're all in their 30s and 40s now but no they're I've seen their friends grow up with them and they've had they've been far in front of their friends you know from what they've gone through and learn about themselves. But if there's one regret I got a and I don't have many, despite all my story is the regret is I'd love to go back and be the parent knowing what I know now from coaching because I would have been a completely different parent because I was assaulted. And I think many men are like this. We give advice because we don't want our kids to go through what we've been through. And so we keep giving you advice, advice, advice. And when they become teenagers and older, they just don't want advice. They switch off to it, they block it. And so we give them more advice. We go, we told you not to do that. And you did it anyway, you know, sort of stuff. Yeah. And as a coach, I really changed a lot. And I started listening. And it was new for me, and how do they want it to be and why and what what do they plan on doing about this thing that I'm worried about? And it all changed. And now, I find that my daughter's often ringing me up for advice, which is crazy, right? Because I used to be the one giving it. And honestly, I never listened. Halfway through me giving them advice, they'd finished the sentence because they already knew my advice. And I didn't want that they just wanted attention and me to listen to them. And that that's a golden rule, you know, you can share with anyone, just start listening to your kids. And that's all they really require, trust them to learn their own lessons and be there as a support rather than advisor. It works.

Ian Hawkins: 16:05

Yeah, absolutely. That's probably the biggest lesson for me around parenting as well. I just, you know, you said it, we should go back. I look at it like this, because I've had to process this in my own head as well. You just think about how, how I was when in those younger years. And it's like, well, I'm preparing them for whatever journey there's so whatever they've gone through because of my different challenges. Well, that's setting them up to to be able to overcome them and to be able to help other people doing the same. And I already see them do that. I'm sure you see that with if your daughters were well ahead, you're probably seeing the same thing. The the lesson that you've just outlined there, I think that for any parent, it's it's so important, it comes back to control, right? We want to control like what's going on? Have you think we've got the best advice, I don't know how you shifted or whether it was just from the coaching. But I was doing this in coaching, but I was still falling into the trap as a parent. And my says to me, What makes you think what I'm going through now has got anything to do with you. And remember, it was like a smack in the face. Oh, no, I just need to ask questions.

: 17:12

We never we never stopped learning ourselves. We never get to a point where we know enough to to be the adviser on everything. They got every problem. So Right. Yeah. Yeah, look, it's I had a thought and it's disappeared on me just think it was very relevant. But it's like,

Ian Hawkins: 17:29

you keep talking, it'll come back to you. Yeah, obviously, I did some odd to get to come to you.

: 17:39

Now apparently, I was just gonna hear what you had to say and

Ian Hawkins: 17:43

do some, some coaching with young athletes. And I say to the parents, so if I'm going to work with your child, I need to work with you guys to

: 17:53

it is normally that's that's where you want to work with first year?

Ian Hawkins: 17:56

Yeah, yeah. So so I can't, like if we do this, then there's gonna need to be shifts on both sides or, or it's just not going to work and you need to be gentle with it. But the reality is, is that whatever you're doing is not helping them. Not me not not whatever you're doing, but which is whichever the part is that's having a detrimental impact that needs to change. And often I see it out there people going, Oh, my child's going through this, this and this. Can you recommend anyone? And and sometimes I say it and sometimes I just think it is like, Well, yeah, I recommend you doing the work on you. Because that's going to make all the difference for your child.

: 18:30

Yeah, yeah, it does all the difference. You know, there's been a lot of studies done in the past about teenage suicide. And the one factor, you know, after tracking people for 20 years, they did a massive study in a university in America. After 20 years of data, they had all sorts of people, you know, people who had parents who are nears of towns and you know, judges in court, etc, fine, upstanding citizens. And then they also had parents in the mix, you know, they they were in jail at the other end of the spectrum, or single parents and stuff like that. The one factor that outweighed all the other influences over a 20 year period was the amount of time that parents spent talking to the child showing them that they matter, that they cared what the child thought, you know, and what, what they wanted, and just listened, you know, they didn't even have to talk. They just had to listen, that time spent with the child. Even if the child was visiting dad in jail. If the dad wanted to speak to him, he felt like he mattered. someone cared about him. Whereas you can, you know, maybe their parents were so busy being such a fine, upstanding citizen, they didn't have time to invest in their own children and people would wonder a kid had it all Why did he do that? You know, what, maybe just didn't feel like he mattered. So it's really big, but it's really simple. We like to say, you know, start with a parent and get them to understand, they don't have to be an expert. They just have to listen. And that was a good prompt while I was trying them. Remember before, though, you said, you, you want to control what they're thinking what they're doing for safety, right? Because you want to say, Yeah, but it's more about if you try and control and you're taking responsibility off their shoulders and putting them on yours. And so you're heading with weight on your own shoulders, and you're walking around with it, and you're not not doing what you do best with that weight on your shoulders, and they don't want you to carry the weight anyway. Because when you do that, you deny them the the benefit of learning from their own lesson that they're going to get if they do something wrong, you know, the test and measure as you go and see what happens. We did that when we were kids and teenagers, we learned lessons, because we're allowed to roam free and learn. And if you try and control all that, you're putting all the responsibility on your shoulders, they'll resent you for it anyway. And you'll find that there's a gap being creative between you and your kids as they get older. When you listen, and you ask them questions, Oh, really? What do you think you should do? Or how do you want it to be? And what do you think you need to do to be safe? And when you're going to do that, and you just keep asking questions, and they feel like oh, that's asking me what I think, wow, that's cool. And they start wanting to share more with you and then seeking out your advice. And that's when you know, you're you've got the code cracked, I think.

Ian Hawkins: 21:22

Absolutely. Until somebody else changes. And then you. Say, Steve, can we go back to that time that you described at the start? So you said you weren't aware at the time that there was a mental illness in the in the family, but what was showing up that you probably couldn't explain, except it was probably really difficult to deal with

: 21:45

the drama, it would start bubbling up like its data, maybe every two or three months, there'd be tension build up in the house, and it was between my wife and I, you know, or my wife and my children, or our children, I should say. And then there'd be an argument of some sort, you don't know what the arguments about, but there's an argument and you're involved. And then it would erupt like a storm. And then the next day, it was like the calm after the storm, you know, a bright sunny day, and everything was fine. So everyone gets half your problems over, we just not want to refer back to it or get involved in where it started. Because was always confusing. And you know, we didn't want it to come back. So we just all go out, everything's good. Now, we'll just leave it alone, we'll move forwards. But it started becoming more frequent, more frequent, more frequent. And I was quite, I was working away a lot at the time, too. And when I come back, I was presented with, you know, these kids have been naughty since you've been away and I'd have to correct them or, you know, have a word with him and all that sort of stuff. That became more frequent, too. And in the end, I learned it wasn't the kids who are having the trouble they were being naughty it was the mental illness of my ex had undiagnosed to this day, as far as I'm aware. But yeah, she started imagining things that we were doing against her and none of it was true, but started spreading it around town creating a lot of trouble even with police and everything. It was really hard with with the with the girls friends, even at at school and the parents or their friends. We all got involved. Like we were all defending ourselves with weird accusations and stuff in the community. And it was really bizarre. And yeah, like, it couldn't go on like that. And it just got got to a point where it all just blew to bits. And at the same time not knowing what it was I went and got a divorce and kept on with life. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 23:37

so did you like if if the stories were coming back to you, would you approach your wife about it and ask what was it about? Oh,

: 23:46

yeah, and they you end up with more drama and accusations and problems. But never an admission of sorry or that's not true or yeah, I'm sorry if I spread that around or anything because some of it you never knew where it started from? It was just rumors you heard coming back from school through my daughter's you know, kids at school are saying this about you that their parents are telling them I had some amazing stories spread around town, a town I I've been in for I think it was about 16 years. People started crossing the road when they saw me coming instead of walking past me to talk to it. I always wondered why and then when I was hearing the rumors that Pete was being spread it, it blew my socks off too. And once people in town stopped believing, you know, like the people they know believe that about someone who's doing something wrong. They all believe it. And so no one all that time like you can't run around going I didn't do that stuff. You'd sound like you're guilty if you run around trying to prove your your innocence. So I thought sooner or later someone will bother to ask me what happened, what's going on? And no one did. That was surprising. So in the end when I moved away, it was a relief but I'd left a problem. I never dealt with that and funny but have gone back up into that area only recently working with some government departments up that way. And crossing over, you know, people at least in up there at the time. And it's been really cathartic for me to revisit where all those ghosts and everything still existed.

Ian Hawkins: 25:17

What what sort of stories we talking if you don't want sharing?

: 25:20

Well, I don't mind sharing, it's my history. Now, at one stage, I wouldn't have been able to talk about it without my voice shaking right now. Awesome story. And I really appreciate it. I'll go gratitude what I went through, I wouldn't wish the harm or the pain or anything on anyone again, but that's what it took to break my life out of what it was where it was heading to what it is now. So I'm eternally grateful for that. But yes, what was being sprayed, I was meant to be having affairs because I was staying away from the family a lot. You know, during the week, I was working away, because I'd stepped up into management. And sometimes they, they sent me to cover for other managers in other towns. And that was all around, you know, from the Murray River down a waterfall, so I could be staying way during the week. So the Rumors were that I was having affairs all this time. And I was, what was it also meant to be abusing my wife financially, not giving her any money, emotionally, physically. One that really worried me was that I was meant to be having an incestuous relationship with one of our daughters. And just all this crazy stuff, and are stealing stuff. And then it was the daughters who are stealing stuff from my wife and meant to be doing stuff to her as well. So it was really bizarre. And it was sodalite. very cleverly done and cunningly don't like it was never an a case where you could just go hey, what do you say that for? And you know, it would be defended with logic or an admission of sorry, I shouldn't have done that. It was all more woven in very subtly, and you never know where it came from, or where it was going. So like I said, I was no match for it. And I've never been prepared for it. I like the way I've been brought up, I just been taught what to believe, which I did very well. I'm a very loyal person. But it meant I was very loyal to a habitual way of dealing with problems. And this was outside of the ordinary. And I didn't cope and it just blew, blew my life to bits. So I had to learn why did I believe that and learn to, you know, I listen to myself or my intuition more and use all my knowledge as reference material or material rather than a list of rules and lessons to live my life by. And in my thinking and my greatest asset.

Ian Hawkins: 27:38

I love that it's reference material. That's good. When when you look back then, in hindsight, was there anything that you now see within your wife, your wife at the time, behavior that were kind of warning signs that you either didn't see at the time or just ignored?

: 27:59

Yeah, yeah. One thing I notice is, I fell in love with my wife when I was 19. And we weren't a perfect match. But I didn't know that. I adapted, you know, and so did she were very good at adapting. And she fell in love with me, too. Like I said, before the mental illness we were, I would have died for her, given the chance, you know, and it's funny how later on in life you wish you had. But I say that in good humor. I don't mean it seriously. But it's like the feeling got broken along the way. But we had a very strong life. So we're very adaptable. But yeah, we weren't a perfect fit. There were so many differences. But one difference. One thing that I knew from the word go was, she was like, I used to call a nuclear powered, she could never switch off. She was always busy. And, and it became a problem later on. When we when we had so many children, like she'd be up working on in cooking, hanging out washing in the dark, and all sorts of stuff, you know, just the only time she stopped was to sleep. And that wasn't much. So we started going to psychologists to try and find out what was driving so much. You know, I just was worried and I wanted her to learn to relaxed have times where she'd just switch off or be down. And she could never do it. And we never got to the end of it never uncovered that. But looking back I go. Now knowing what I know, that's a sign of people who can't switch often they're driven so hard, there's a reason for it. And I've just, you know, so naive, but I'm surprised you know, like the amount of counselors we went through how pathetic they were or useless and even picking up that stuff. And also, in later years, the counselors I'd learned had been being fed false stories about me way before I knew the problem was getting out of hand. So when we went to counseling, they always look at me and they'd have an opinion about me and they separate us so they could talk to her. And it was later that I'm was learning that, you know, the seed was being sown even then that she was lying to me but never realized that she never apologized for it or was able to realize that she had a mental illness that needed to, which was part of the illness as far as I know.

Ian Hawkins: 30:15

Yeah. Wow. So when you say mental illness, and you said it's undiagnosed, have you put your finger on what illness it would be?

: 30:23

No look after, after we separated and I ended up going to a different, different country town to live in. My eldest daughter managed to get her to a psychiatrist. Because she was having a lot of trouble dealing with the new world she created by causing the trouble, she had to try and live in it as well. And she wasn't coping. So I got to talk to psychiatrists. But even psychiatrists didn't say that there was any diagnosable mental conditions driving any of it, because what I found was she was brilliant at lying, very believable, even through court got everything because she was crying every step of the way. And everyone just wanted to comfort her and believe that she was very, very clever. But again, I think that's a mental illness, you know, very cunning, huh,

Ian Hawkins: 31:12

wow. Now, as a parent, I can't even begin to imagine how stressed you must have been about your children. Just how, like you must have been at your wit's end when you were thinking about the impact it was having on them. Well,

: 31:29

she was not fit to look after herself. She was suicidal choose? Well, I, in my opinion, only right. This is only my opinion. But she was had a problem with alcohol and drugs, too, when, when the marriage broke down and left. So I had two young daughters in a house where they'd have to try and look after their mum in some awful situations and have strangers in house too, that were not there for any good intent. So as a parent, I was terrified. But I had orders against me, I wasn't allowed to be there. And

Ian Hawkins: 32:03

well, so how did you cope with all of that, like, if you said, like, you were terrified, like,

: 32:08

I was traumatized, do what I can I spend a lot of time on the phone, and my daughters are dragging me up in the middle of the night, Dad, this is going wrong, that's going wrong. One thing I managed to do, I spent, I went way into debt to try and get the court to allow my kids to be wherever they wanted to stay. I actually achieved that before I run out of money and just had to stop. But the problem with my two youngest daughters, all this trouble that they're experiencing, they were thick as thieves together those two, and they just felt safer at home with their friends in town in their town, then they were to move hundreds of kilometers away to a new school with me, you know, they are struggling to figure it out. So they had the right to choose where to live. But they didn't exercise. It wasn't until, you know, maybe three or nearly four years later that they actually did and came to live with me. So yeah, it was it was really hard. I gotta tell you, if you want it, where are you? You know, something going wrong with your kids is the worst thing you can ever experience. I think even even worse than if something's wrong with yourself or your partner.

Ian Hawkins: 33:14

Yeah, I agree with that, from my experience as well. How do you like, how are you still functioning at work?

: 33:25

That's when I would go I was my mind was just a cloud. I couldn't even remember short term memory. You know, like, I was forgetting everyone's birthdays and important events and everything. And I was not organized. And I was, you know, when I imagined it was like being a zombie. It was just Groundhog Day, every day. I you know, it was a real wake up call for me. There was one stage then when I was sitting down for dinner, I had this small pokey flat. And I'd made dinner. And I don't, don't normally do do it. But I ate dinner in front of the TV. And while I was eating, I was watching this comedy show. I can't even remember what it was. But at the end of it, you know, my whole life was misery. And I was, you know, flat about everything. And I was just calmly showing her. I can't even make comedy shows like they used to anymore because I didn't find out at all funny. And then I started trying to remember what's the last show that I liked. That was actually funny. I couldn't remember when then I started thinking when was the last time I laughed? Or could not remember the last time I laughed and oh my goodness. So I've forgotten how to live. So try to make myself laugh and I couldn't. So I started hiring DVDs of comedies, you know, to make myself laugh and I could sit down I could see what was funny and nothing. So I had to start making myself fake laugh. I wanted to learn how to laugh again. So I started doing that. And something changed because I started getting a whole flood of emotions. It was a few months after that. I remember sitting down and I don't watch The Simpsons, but there was an episode of The Simpsons on The Simpsons cartoon as I sat down to finish my dinner that Not. And they played a song in this cartoon. And something triggered me and I just started bawling my eyes out like, oh, well, a couple of months ago, I couldn't even laugh. And now I've got progress, because now laughing over over bloody cartoons, right. And it was a journey, I had to reconnect myself with all my emotions, because I was just wiped out.

Ian Hawkins: 35:23

And, to me, that's, that's what happens when you have grief that, that you haven't processed it. Like, I think back to those times where, after my dad passed, I understand have a memory of the kids growing up. For those, like, for those younger years, that probably four or five years afterwards, just a blur, and you see photos and, and my memory of it was that I wasn't in a good place. But the photos tell a different story. So it's amazing. It's amazing how we then process all of that time. Do you have a Have you had conversations with your daughters since then, about that time and how you all got through it?

: 36:07

Oh, yeah. And it's like, we are really tight now. And that's something that's it's a blessing. But it's not like, we've all got different memories of it, which blew my mind, you know, we might have all been in the same room when something really profound happened. And I, you know, would say oh, look, you remember when that happened? And they go no, I don't remember it that way. And they'll they'll say, I remember this happened. I go it actually that's not what happened at all. But then another one will go no, no, no, that's not what happened. We all had different memories. We were all at a different age level. But it really was a really good example of how our perspective of life all resolves revolves around it, you know, what meaning we give things and why. And our beliefs again. Yeah, so seeing that that was bizarre because you know, we're trying to convince each other that the other version wasn't right. But now we're we're really good. We like I said, we've come a long way. And I've made it my life. I love doing what I do now for a whole it's opened up a whole world of world of fascination it's more fascinating our emotions and our beliefs, etc. To me. And space, you know, there's more going on inside our heads and and it's really weird. All this stuff that goes on all the emotions were feeling all the fear, all the drama, all the turmoil, that doesn't exist. In reality, it only exists inside our mind. It's like, wow, you know, it's bizarre. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 37:35

absolutely is the whole thing around memories, fascination, fascinating to think it's a Malcolm Gladwell podcast, and he was talking about the impact of memory. And he and he quoted, they do these studies around, they called flush events or whatever they, they interview people on the day, and then every year, and then every year they get there, they get him to recount the day. And they will argue against what they did the previous year. Yeah. Adam adamant that because that's what their memory telling, apparently, like, every year, it can change by 20%. So we want to, we want to hold grudges, and we want to write about things from the past, when the reality is that most likely what we remember is false. And that what we were even frightened about is probably long since swept away as well,

: 38:25

fulfilling remains and our mind only as a conscious, you know, it only holds on to things that relate to the belief we've had, you know, we created our beliefs when we're very young, you know, for seven years, and then we unconsciously gather evidence for the rest of our life to reinforce our beliefs from back then. So because it's quicker to access those memories, those heuristics, which are just like a packet of beliefs, our mind is cleverly made to throw out a problem so we can understand it quickly. So we don't have to go through the, you know, the long drawn out process of understanding or analyzing things all the time. So it is what you say, you know, it's not like, I could remember one time being really angry with someone. And then I went to sleep, woke up in the morning, I had a great sleep, and I woke up on a stretch and I felt really good sun was coming in the window. And then I remember the mood creeping over me when I started remembering the what I was thinking about the the anger, how angry I was with a certain person the day before, and I reinstalled the program and I woke up happy and I could feel it, you know, overtaking my body, this feeling of I hang on. I'm not meant to be happy. I'm meant to be angry. And I thought wow, you know, funny just reinstalling the program, our mind is incredible the way it grabs hold of what we want to believe. And it makes it our reality. Our whole life is is a consequence of unbelief. Really?

Ian Hawkins: 39:52

Yeah, absolutely. And even to the point I don't know if you've experienced this but you you help someone to clear an old belief and an old block and then they move forward. And then they still have to be able to change the habit. Because as you said, and you just reinstall, right, if you keep repeating that pattern, then then there's a reinstall that happens.

: 40:08

Yeah, well, you got to, there's a number of things in there if you if you clean someone's belief, and again, it gets back to, it's a bit like listening to your kid, if they're not engaged in it, if they're not seeking the change, you can do all the clearing you want, and it won't mean as much to them. But if they really want to complete it, and they do the the emotional clearing, well, that, that that interrupts the belief, but then they got to install new neural pathways, new memories. And so they got to exercise that a little bit to create the pathway. So it gets myelinated and stuff. And so they got to use it, but they're not going to do it if they don't want to do it. So

Ian Hawkins: 40:44

100% And that one question that we were talking about before around when you said, you know, you got to be ready. If if you try and force things upon people, then they never get anywhere because they're not ready and you just get

: 40:56

resistance. Actually. You walk into a shop and a salesman comes up to you and tries to sell you something you got automatically resist because you don't want someone else to have control over your life. And yet we we allow our memories to control us, according to the police were taught that's another that's another topic.

Ian Hawkins: 41:19

So when when you come out the other side, and you start to get coaching, it was Was there a moment that you can remember, we were either like an outpouring of emotion or a moment of clarity where you can suddenly see things are different a shift in perspective, perhaps

: 41:37

it's funny, you mentioned that before something that resonated a lot and brought brought back to me my journey through all that I have had many revelations and many aha moments, you know, mind blowing, oh, my goodness, this is awesome. You know, tears crying, all this sort of stuff. But when I say tears crying, that's not totally true. Just tears of realization, like you just get a tear roll down the side. It's not full on crying, right? It's like, because that was, yeah, that was a missing piece. I was searching for rebuilding beliefs and getting, you know, getting in touch with my emotions, again, trying to get out of my head, you know, out of the amygdala. And just get some normality back in life and some success and everything. Now I know how to do it. It's ridiculously easy, but back there, and everyone kept saying you're in your head. I go what you keep telling me that you don't tell me how to get out of my head. You know, I'm trying to think my way out of my head, which is making it worse. But yeah, it was that search. The one that I was looking for was one that I've I've still to this day haven't had, that I do so much meditation, I believe I've actually Aquila braided out of me anyway, time will tell, but that is full on crying. I've never grieved the loss of my wife, or the loss of the marriage, or the pain or the loss of my kids innocence and all that sort of stuff. Like I forgot how to laugh. And then I learned how to laugh and cry and everything. But there's never been a profound moment that grieve all of that happening. So I'm good. I'm really solid. I think maybe one day I'll just break down in tears and cry. Or maybe I'll just be happy to continue the way I'm going I don't know. But that grief is something you really need to express and feel to get to get free.

Ian Hawkins: 43:25

Again. Yeah, absolutely. Again, I think it comes back to being ready. Like the next big profound shift happens when you're ready. And sometimes these things happen. You believe in divine timing or whether things are meant to be but I think of some of those big moments for me, they were usually where I traveled somewhere out of the norm. So I've referenced on this podcast before my trip to Bali, which which had a massive cleansing experience I've had any number of times where I've gone off for you know, you talk about NLP and that sort of thing. You go into your training and your learning to be able to facilitate it. But the real shift from that experience for me is that actually the shift that gives you yourself so, you know, that's for me, but you've said that you've done a bit of movement around a bit of travel so maybe it's more the might be a different, different situation for you.

: 44:20

He had traveled doesn't I find travel, I enjoy travel. But it's not a it's not a deep desire to me. I love traveling for a reason. I'm not really a good traveler just to see what's there and have fun, like a bit of a tourist I need a reason to be somewhere. But to me, it's more about the people I meet when I travel so I don't have to travel to meet new people. So to me, I just find people fascinating. And that helps me understand myself. The more I engage with people the more I understand myself in the process. I don't find travel as done that travel just adds another aspect of my life of pleasure and relaxation and learning but it doesn't have as much effect on me as people.

Ian Hawkins: 45:03

And is that something you can remember that being the case from a young age?

: 45:07

No See, for, again, the way I created my life was, I created it to match what I believe I deserve. See, I was always very quite shy kid, you know, like, very quiet. didn't believe, cuz I got three brilliant siblings, you know, I was the youngest of four. And so I grew up believing that I wasn't clever they were. So I didn't realize they were all older than me for a start. But I'd try and match myself against them. And they always corrected me. And all suddenly my parents, you know, they were quite clever. And I just grew up thinking I wasn't that clever. So I went a new way. So I had a belief to overcome way back then. But what I did was I created a life where I had a job that I was able to get, and I made the best out of it. But I was never fully realizing who I could be because I had this belief that I couldn't learn beyond what I'd already learnt. So it was breaking through that. Either trauma I went through, I had to dig deep and challenge who I was. And I learned, I was way more. And when I got onto what I really wanted to do. And it opened me up to talk to other people. And when I started practicing the coaching with other people and seeing the profound effect it had on them, I thought, here's a reason why I went through all that one went through how I can use what I was meant to be to help pass it on to other other people. So I see a purpose. And I learned that by, you know, mixing with other people and helping them and going through what I went through. I'd like to say I wish it was traveled to give me a reason to travel will be I just need to meet more people. That's all I desire.

Ian Hawkins: 46:48

So this, I'm sure you do this as well, when you're coaching, but just joining dots, if it wasn't something that was like that the whole way through it, like could it have something to do with the fact that travel for you meant having to leave town, because of the whole experience he had went through not by choice, but by almost by force, right? They need to need any clear stuff out of there.

: 47:15

I love I love travel, don't get me wrong, and it doesn't affect me one way or the other. Like, if I'm stuck in the ones for too long. I feel like I'm getting a bit stale. So I like change in my life, whether it's location, or people or variety of what I do. So like I said, it's just I love travel. So there's no no problem with it. I just don't need it. It's not a it's not a prime motivator for me. People seem to be more motivated. If someone no matter where they are once rang me up and said, Hey, let's catch up. If it was a long way away and had to travel there, I wouldn't. But if it was next door, I would as well as sort of like, I liked the difference whether it's near offer, I don't find that I'd have to travel to seek something different. I just like looking at life differently every single day, I guess.

Ian Hawkins: 48:05

When you like for me, it's often the case that patterns that show up and adulthood have been there. For quite a young age, like you said, we form so many of our beliefs in those first seven years. You said you had a very different upbringing. Do you look back also at some of those things that were to your detriment in that time that then played out in later years?

: 48:27

Yeah, yeah. See, I use your the first 10 years of life, right? We believe our parents 100%. Right. So we think they're invaluable. And then we turn into teenagers and we start seeing our parents as human beings and seeing their, you know, where they're susceptible and where they where they have been hypocritical and stuff like that we start challenging that we start rebelling against to a lot. And we think, you know, by the time we're 20, we think we have and we go, we don't want to live here any longer. We want to start our own life our way and do it. And in the 20s you might get married and have kids or gender house or another job or something. And then your 30s you know, you're embedding that working harder than in your 40s. You'll look around and blow me down if you haven't gone and created recreated one of your parents lives the way they had, you know, and I learned that about myself. All the time, I believed I'd run away from a childhood that I was never really happy. And I need to create that life later on. So I learned a lot more about my dad after he passed away, and had a lot more empathy for him and I could start seeing what was driving him and motivating him from what I've learned through coaching. And a lot of the therapies that I've done on myself as well took me in a great greater understanding of my own beliefs I'd formed as a result of having that life and then rebelling against it and a whole journey. Like I said, even taking responsibility for my marriage because I believed I was a victim for so long that it wasn't my fault. None of this was my fault. And I believed I was a victim. So I didn't look for ways out. And I didn't own up to changing my own beliefs, because I was blaming the situation. It was when I took 100% responsibility for the life I was living, I could see that I subconscious, unconsciously created that life because it was giving me what I believed I deserved, which wasn't enough. And now, like we didn't get to change those beliefs yourself, turn them on, turn them off, adjust them, update them, you know, you can start matching them to your potential What, what's really inside of you to come out. And that's the exciting part. You know, that's, you can't put a value on that. I'm sad that the whole family paid such a price, not just for me to learn that lesson. It's the lesson I took out of it and see it as a gift. And I don't know if it's the reason we all went through it. But a lot of good has come from a lot of bad. And it's as far as I've gone on that.

Ian Hawkins: 50:54

Yeah, well, I'd, I'd suggest that there was a gift for everyone, even though you're only looking at through your lens and seeing all the bad stuff that happened to them. There'll be many, many gifts for everyone involved, including your ex, whether people are ready to see that or not. So another thing?

: 51:09

Well, again, everyone has to take responsibility for their own life through whatever they're going through. Yeah, when you say and again, it's important that you understand why you feel like a victim, and then understand what's going on and understand that you got a choice no matter what you've always got a choice, or choosing to stay a victim. That's a choice. Yeah, it all got their own responsibility to take what they need to learn and do to to get out of their own situation. And that's like I was saying before, instead of giving advice on how to do it, we listen to each other, which which is the best gift you can give anybody I think

Ian Hawkins: 51:45

100% Well said, What did you experience from your dad that had you then having to then process like, yeah, and then and then realize after he passed what, like what his upbringing had been like, Yeah,

: 52:01

well, for us that there's no blaming here or judgment, okay, this is just saying it as it is, it might sound like I'm blaming him, but I was brought up in a very religious household. So I learned afterwards, there was a reason what probably a reason I can guess at why my dad would have relied so much on religion to sort his own life out. I'm also a behavioral profile. So I know what sort of energy type my dad was. And I can see why he once he believes in something, he is very strong belief a lot, like I recognize, I've got myself. And it's like, trying to break that belief was almost impossible with my dad. So he had all of us believing the religion 100% as well, and we were very religiously controlled. And so I grew up terrified to God, I was thinking that I was going to be punished for all these things I was thinking and, you know, it was a fear based sort of religion, you know, like a fire and brimstone stuff. And so there was a lot of that, and I just wanted to leave that behind and escape and have a normal life. And I did, I left home when I was 15, and got a job and started being happy as Larry having freedom. But yeah, I kept, I was still being driven by a subconscious belief I wasn't aware of, you know, even trying to escape something that influences your life, because you're trying to do the opposite to something is still not listening to what what you're innately capable of doing. It is trying to go in opposite away to something you've been taught. So learning all that out, though, I still find it so fascinating, even though it's only my own life, which is just an ordinary life, really. It's extraordinary. You know, everybody's life is extraordinary. And I love going through decade by decade, and getting people to relate whatever profound, good or bad events have happened to them, and helping them you know, weave a story around it and see how it's influenced their life to where they are now. Because they have profound moments when people can see the effect that their life has had and how you know, lessons are reinforced as they get older and older. They're not new lessons. They're the same one being reinforced in reinforced in different ways by different people and circumstances. So if you don't listen and take responsibility to learn what what's being taught to you, you keep getting slapped around by the universe harder and harder until you do so. Pain is your friend. It's not the enemy. It's the pain, you're feeling the life you want to leave because you're unhappy. It's not just because you're not coping, it's not because you're a loser or a failure or anything. It's like trying to get your attention that loves you so much it wants you to learn and change. Because without that pain, you never would change, you would stay exactly where you were. So quite often we try and resist that and look in a different direction all the time. So listening to all that. Growing up in a religious family, all of that I look back and I go well, I'm so lucky. I had that caliber of people with that perspective for me to learn from an add to the repertoire of what I know now and so like, just everybody adds richness in your life if you can look at a bigger perspective, rather than just a narrow view.

Ian Hawkins: 55:06

I love that my experience was similar growing up in that sort of religious upbringing. I don't remember it being by my parents necessarily the the fire and brimstone. But I do remember being a church in Sunday school and developing this fear around exactly like you describe the thoughts and, and what I've done and, and all sorts of crazy thoughts that you have in those times. For me then meant when I sort of got older, I just completely separated myself from anything that remotely considered spiritual. But of course, there was still stuff playing out in the background, drawing me back in skepticism and all that sort of stuff. Has that been your experience, too? And then we'll circle and then rediscovering a, a judgment free spirituality.

: 55:59

Yeah, great topic. Because, yeah, I did the opposite. I abandoned everything to get as far away from it as I could. But then I felt guilty for abandoning it, right. It's I didn't make much progress. I just went around feeling guilty all the time. And I felt again, like I wasn't, I don't deserve anything, because I've abandoned God. So I had the belief of being a victim right from the start. And I had to come to terms with that and own it, and step into it. And I think I have, I've done so much work, and I've opened myself up instead of just believing one aspect of being taught, and I've challenged on my beliefs, what's the opposite to it? What's the opposite to it? Why, why and what evidence do I have to believe something and look at all that as reference material, again, instead of as being told any religion that tells you the book that we base our religion on says this and says that and says that I always say, can you tell me why I should believe in your religion without proving it to me from the book that your religion is about, and they can't do it. So I've come full circle, and I just innately believe, because I've got so much evidence in front of me, for me to satisfy me, but there is a God, but I call it the universe or life source or whatever relates to other people for them. But inside my head, it's God. But I just don't believe in religion. That's, that's as far as I've come. Because I think that we're all equally important in life, we're all equally valuable. But we have different purposes, different perspectives, different traits, different challenges, different levels of fitness, health, or the whole heap. But we're all equal. Think so long as we define ourselves by religion, by race, by color, by nationality by football teams, or whatever, we're isolating yourself, and we're saying, You people who aren't aligning myself with, we're all good, but everyone else is different. And we're creating an unevenness by doing that. And I think, in my own mind, you know, like to journey through life, the spirituality I'm seeking is to connect everyone together and appreciate everyone, I think, when we realize that we're all part of the fabric of God, we make it all up, we're all important. It's like a jigsaw puzzle. Every piece is the same height. But we've got different shapes and colors, and we've got a spot we belong in. We've all got a spot that we belong in, and we need to find it. But if you think the jigsaw puzzle is just made up of a certain color pieces, you're not going to get a picture at the end. So we've answered that completely. But that sort of

Ian Hawkins: 58:34

I'd like to answer it's good food for thought, I'm sure for everyone. I like to think that all those different groups, it's okay for you to find places that you belong in different groups, it's then how do we then make the groups become the jigsaw? And well, that's all part

: 58:49

though, isn't it? If you're, if you're the part that moves around through the picture, and connects other groups, pulls them together, you've still got a spot on that board where you belong. And that's the influence you have, you've probably worked through the other pieces alongside you and your unite them to spread to other people. But yeah, we like the spot on the board doesn't fix you went in one spot that's just figuratively speaking. And I was like, just so that you know that you belong, and you've got a purpose and you're part of the fabric. And whether you're moving around the planet doing it or not, it doesn't doesn't mean that you have you're not allowed to if you've got a spot on the board, you got to stay on that spot.

Ian Hawkins: 59:28

Yeah, well said. That's the

: 59:31

the image in my mind anyway, that's as best as I could relate it to understand something in my own be.

Ian Hawkins: 59:38

Yeah. And I really liked that. I remember having a fairly robust discussion with someone who was very much from a scientific perspective, and he was concerned about, you know, all these different niches and smaller groups of people and, you know, it's going to create this disconnect, and I'm like, well, people belong in those. It's about finding ways that we can cross the divide between groups. And usually there's one person who's very good at doing that they can be, like you described can can be that piece on the board that that brings. Yeah, they can join. And I look at what we do is a lot like that, right? Whether it's the small family unit when we're helping people to bridge that gap, because there's just as many gaps in a family unit as there is of all these different groups out there.

: 1:00:28

Yeah. And it's funny, but like I said, I've got such a thirst for knowledge. I've studied so many different things. Religion, psychology, neuroscience, quantum physics, just so much stuff, an amazing thing I found is, all those different modalities as vastly different as they are to each other all have the same journey inside them. You know, even people who believe in energy healing as opposed to people on scientific fact, they all start with learning who we are, and where, what your vision is where you want to go and getting a flow state and disregarding stuff that's useless. And really, you know, being true to yourself, the same messages in every different religion and every different health practice and scientific endeavor. It's all leading different people who, you know, who believe they belong in different groups the same way, and yet they all are judging each other as the other ones around, you know what I mean? So it's like, connect together, add the different perspective into this massive picture, and honor each other as equals not as different, lesser or more, depending on what they do.

Ian Hawkins: 1:01:37

Yeah, absolutely. The only thing about this this week, the sort of foundation of science is observation that people need to have observed. spiritualities exactly the same. It's, it's what we see, it's what we hear. It's what we feel with all of our senses. And they're probably more similar than both sides care to admit. But that's why I like to play more in the middle, which is headed like someone described to me, it's like you're the bird on the breeze, just adjusting each side to do find whatever works best for you.

: 1:02:15

Yeah, if you've got no evidence, hard evidence to prove something one way or the other, you got no right to judge that someone else's view of it in a different way is necessarily right or wrong. It's like, just accept that they got a different perspective and learn from it. Appreciate it. That's a perspective you don't have. It's a blind spot in your own understanding. Really?

Ian Hawkins: 1:02:36

Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned word, the word purpose before, there's a million different definitions. And even I use different definitions, depending on the circumstance, circumstance. But to me, the essence of it is to be able to help people through something that you've been through, because there's an innate, not innate, there's a learned part of you that never wants someone else to have to go through the pain that you've been through. Here that to

: 1:03:04

me, to me, purpose is a little bit different. That can be one aspect of it. To me, you're probably familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of human needs. Yeah. Yep. At all leads up to self actualization. And self actualization is where you release your potential, and you can be all you can be. And that is what I think our purpose is to take responsibility for everything that we can. And so we can be all we can be, leave nothing, you know, take risks, be prepared to fail to learn something, be prepared to accept someone different, so you can learn off them. And if you take full responsibility and have this faith that you'll be alright, if you do that it doesn't define who you are, if you make a mistake, that I think is everyone's purpose to fully reach their potential. Whether it's just in one aspect of spirituality or not, or, or success in another area. I think it's bigger than that. I think, because we've got so much diversity, someone's purpose might be very little, but that's their spot on a jigsaw puzzle board, right? And someone, I'd have a massive, far reaching, purpose or impact, and that's their purpose. But we all fit together to make that fabric like I was saying before. Absolutely. Yeah, I think I think purpose for me is just whatever a person feels is inside them. They got to take responsibility to let it out and use it. You know, so many of us. This is one thing that burned me off my perspective of religion and that was constantly seeing religious people pray and give their responsibility for that away. Everything that happened that was bad was God's will. Anything good was that we're being blessed. And it's not like they're just always asking for something to be done for them for a reason they were going to think something or, you know, everything was God's will and it wasn't this And I think, well, I see God is life and life as in all of us. So in actual fact, to learn more about God, I go inside and look at myself and honor his presence in me, you know, and so like, he wants me to use what he's given me to get a result, not pray to him because I think he would be sitting up in heaven somewhere going, well, I gave you this incredible body and credible mind to do all that stuff with you keep asking me to do it. Come on. I'm sending all these lessons to you. So you'll get off your off your butt and do it. And you're still praying to me, right? So yeah, to me, it's like self actualization is everyone's purpose. If you ask me, and as a coach, I help them see what it looks like, in reality and their reality.

Ian Hawkins: 1:05:43

Love it. It's a him, is it? A huge thing? You just said, you said, Oh, God, as in him? Only. Partly,

: 1:05:54

I've got no book I go by to say whether that's right or wrong. So to me, because I'm here my say, I'll look at him as a him. It could be anything, because I'm not clever enough to tell you one way or the other what's right or wrong?

Ian Hawkins: 1:06:10

To me, to me. I was listening well, not to me, but to many people, I guess. But I heard this Simon Sinek talking about it just this week. Saying, purpose depends on other people. So it's not an individual thing. It is an individual thing. But it depends on that interaction, which plays in well, what you were saying before, it's like you've been taking that self responsibility, and then going out and doing making whatever difference that is, yes. You

: 1:06:43

don't I don't I don't feel sorry. But you're just, I don't think you earn a spot on that jigsaw puzzle board until you release your potential. So the board is for people who get out and really set potential. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, 100%, you don't realize that you're not releasing your potential, so you don't have a spot on the board, you don't become the part of the fabric that everyone needs. And so it is always in relation to the pieces around you that fit into so it's always through people. And I've seen so many men, which is why I'm men coach, right. So many men withdraw when they believe they're not up to the standard that they believe they should be at and competing with other men. So they withdraw, and they hide their light. And they're not reaching their potential, which is a real injustice, because it's their own belief that they're allowing to take control of them. And I know they, because I've been there that they don't know any other way. And they think that they're a victim and it's hopeless. But it's like no, get that fire burning inside you. There's more to your you know, the injustice is you're not? You can't see it, I can see it because I'm outside of your belief system, but you don't. So yeah, get that fire of purpose burning. And everybody I say so I'm sorry for interrupting you there, that was just a strong belief of mine a strong view.

Ian Hawkins: 1:08:01

And I don't disagree with it. You on the subject of purpose, I know that when when you find that thing that you've struggled with your whole life, you know that it's something you're gonna be able to help people with, because you've had to overcome it again, and again. And again. From my experience, that challenge continues, which allows that eternal learning that you described to continue as well, because you're like, I still want to get better in this area, I still want to get better in this area. What's that area for you?

: 1:08:32

Do you know I don't define this is the freedom I've got from breaking through beliefs. I identify myself with any area and so like, I don't like answers, I've learned that because an answer is a belief with a full stop. The answer is that's the answer. That's the evidence and you close your mind to everything else. None of our inventions, I'm looking at the electric light, the electric light, you know, the car, radio, TV, none of them were one idea. Someone had an idea and developed it to its fullest potential. And I go there's, that's the answer to what I dreamed up, someone else will see its potential and take it further because they got a different perspective or a different belief. And it keeps getting added to and added to and it gets bigger and bigger. And then it can be used for electric lights or whatever. So so like everything is open as far as I'm concerned. And I I allow myself to flow this way and that I'm very holistic. I've added so many strings to my bow another thing is I'm a health and fitness coach. So I look at the whole aspect of life and I find I like to just be curious about it all I know that's not a very specific answer, but just allow yourself to open up that nothing is an answer. Everything can be questioned and queried and taken further and understood more so like none of us are experts at anything. We're just all learning and different levels of experience really Because Does that answer that question?

Ian Hawkins: 1:10:03

And I don't necessarily agree, I think we're all x experts at something and actually dismissed the idea of 10,000 hours, I think every single person has got more than, like 100,000 hours, because there's, there's a part of them that their essence that they've continued to develop again, and again, one particular part sure, like you can go and do, everyone can go and do a bit of everything. But there's one area that's had a particular challenge for them. And that's the area that is, is the individual's expertise. That's That's not just my belief, that's my knowing from everyone that I've coached and my own experience as well, that there's, there's a unique part of every single person that makes it.

: 1:10:43

Yeah, the uniqueness is, again, that that's, that's something that is unique. Like, even though we're all equal value, like the jigsaw puzzle pieces are all the same height, we're all different shapes, because I believe we are all unique, and we've all got a unique purpose. So we got to understand what it is and find it ourselves. That's why it's good to listen to people in a good coach will help people uncover that in themselves, they won't tell them what it is. Because it's so it's so unique, you know, only that person will be able to uncover it and probably has a good feeling of what that thing could be for them. Which is probably where you're coming from with me. But I don't know, if I've defined myself, you know, here's the area I'm really good at, or his most profound thing I've learned. And this is my one message. I just liked listening to people, I guess, I suppose with me is learning that I'm equally important to as everybody else, there's no one better and no one worse. I think they're just all capable of it. The lot. So I think that's been my lesson that to value myself as an individual and see everybody else's equal.

Ian Hawkins: 1:11:47

And that could be part of where your expertise is, right? Because if you look at the Yeah, like you've mentioned that term, I actually wrote it down to the top, like, the not deserving part and that taking full responsibility part like there are things that the world needs, right. And I'm not going to tell you that that's your expertise, but from everything you've described, you certainly ahead of 99.99% of the population in that area, because its own passionate views about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my and I share them like, everyone who's been listening to my podcast for a long time is what I do the individual episodes, I'm talking about that regularly, full responsibilities, absolute, you know,

: 1:12:30

that word used to trigger me responsibility and discipline reminded me too much of someone controlling my life and telling me I had to be responsible. And yes, it's something I used to get if I was naughty. And now it's it. Whatever's in the way is the way right. And that was in my way. And I learned it's actually a biggest friend, you're not going to be free until you take responsibility. And discipline is not denying yourself stuff or punishing yourself, it's making sure you get what you really want Most loans like these are the avenue to what everything you want. And so what I used to think was a blocking my way was actually the gateway. It's really good.

Ian Hawkins: 1:13:10

Absolutely. I look at the word actually, one of my one of my coaches described it to me, it's, it's how you are going to respond, bad stuffs gonna happen, that's live. But how you respond is the key part. And the moment and I know this, because I was stuck in blame for so long, the moment you're in that place of blame, like you describe the victimhood, you'll never be able to change. And then you hear the word stuff, you've got to respond with what you can control. And when you do that, that's when you set yourself free.

: 1:13:44

And blame is saying, I can't change that. Yeah, and you can't change what you don't take responsibility for. So it's not taking responsibility as that's my fault. I need to be punished or I'm hopeless. It's okay. That's the result of what I was doing. So let's change what I was doing and getting it get a different result. Your life changes when you realize it.

Ian Hawkins: 1:14:04

Yeah. 100%. So looking forward, Steve, what is the big change that you want to really bring to the world from the more of a bigger picture?

: 1:14:15

Good question. And I love win win, right? So I don't make any bones about I don't want to become ridiculously insanely successful doing what I do, because I love reinvesting everything to make what I do bigger and have a further reach. So I just want to reach out to as many men as possible, because I see women were downtrodden for so long, and they've got unique talents. And they have really organized themselves into a force where they get government funding they get noticed they they're making a difference in their own lives and go them and they're good at sharing their problems and voicing it and expressing themselves without seeking someone to come and solve it. Yet I see us as men doing the opposite. We should Think back, we oscillate, we don't become a force so that we can present ourselves as a body and be counted for government funding in any area. So we've got to take responsibility for the results we're getting. That's why it's so important to me to be an in coach or remain coach. So I can help be a part of that and just see the change, because that was one thing I found through my journey through the, you know, the family courts and everything. Going through what I was going through, no one was able to be in my shoes and understand what that was, like, because it was so bizarre, you know, it was very unique. I remember sitting in the family court, and there was big pamphlet racks, you know, on a number of walls full of pamphlets, you know, and I saw that they were there for, you know, abused wives and minority groups and people with problems with drugs, and bla bla bla, and I thought, I'll find one for for men, you know, a men's helpline or something and see if, you know, I can get some help, you know, and, you know, I couldn't find a single men pamphlet for men. And I was searching for a few years. And I thought, this is, you know, I just couldn't believe it. I thought there's nothing, not even a flip and pamphlet. And then I remember the last year of family court, I was going through, I set sitting down at my eyes just focused on one pamphlet, it was only one left and it said, men's helpline, oh my goodness, I found one I jumped up and grabbed it, opened it up. And it said, if you're a man and you're feeling angry, and you feel like doing something violent, you know, ring this helpline. That's, that is so like, so condescending, and blaming men for everything and making us feel bad. And it's not giving anyone help or support or going look, you might feel like a victim, you might have been abused, you might have been, you might really be a victim and need help. You might need refuge, you might need some money or financial understanding or some psychological treatment. There's none of that. It was just saying you're violent, you're a man go and get help the dog yourself in. You know, I've got,

Ian Hawkins: 1:17:05

yeah, keep going.

: 1:17:06

I got a mission. And you know, it's like, try and help men release who they are and overcome the problems that they found themselves in and recreate that. Love it.

Ian Hawkins: 1:17:15

Much needed. And as you've pointed out there, because there's just not enough stuff out there. So here's the million dollar question, Steve. If a man grabbed that pamphlet, what from and this is going to be femur experienced? Because it'll be different for every person? What do they need to see on that pamphlet? That will make them think he's right, I need to call this number.

: 1:17:38

Yeah. Well, I like the way I look at myself, what I do is like, If a man is unhappy with the symptoms is experiencing, and he's dealing, because what we're really dealing with is the symptoms in our life. You know, we're looking at unhappiness, powerlessness, meaninglessness, you know, don't have a have a purpose. And but when we're dealing with the symptom, we're trying to find all the symptoms all the time, and I go, you know, if you want to get to the root cause of what's been, you know, staring you down the wrong path your whole life, you need to talk to me, because you know, you're better than that, you know, you don't deserve what's happening. You're trying really hard to do the right thing. You're very loyal to strong beliefs. No matter how hard you try, you're getting worse results. You need to talk to me and we can help put you onto the right road. I don't think we're doing anything wrong. We're just playing the wrong game. That's why I call myself the game changer. Because if you're used to the life that you want to escape the unhappy life that you you're living and experiencing, they want relief from that happen quite naturally, effortlessly. Because your unconscious beliefs created what you believe unconsciously you deserve. So if you can change your beliefs, you can create the life you deserve, as effortlessly as you created, the one you're trying to escape from. And that's where you need help. Let's say we help you do that.

Ian Hawkins: 1:18:59

It's so good. So good. And from everything you've said in your story, all of those things that you presented there fit perfectly right like not to harp on this, but But you would be an expert in that area, because you've experienced it, you've overcome it. And you know, what men need to know to get to that next level, man. So that's really cool. I love that

Unknown Speaker: 1:19:19

I've got lived experience you could say. I'm not old, I'm experienced.

Ian Hawkins: 1:19:25

I wrote that down. You said it before we jumped on and I read that yeah, I love that. Yeah, very good. So what is unique about you, Steve?

: 1:19:37

Year G What is unique about me? One thing that is unique about me is why I think I'm making such a damn good men's coach because I never want to be a man coaches. That is my secret. They don't tell anyone because so many other men coaches, supposedly men coaches, and it was sort of like a bit harsh. I don't mean to demean them this that they will have a place I'm sure They pushed me away because I saw them wanting to sit around campfires dressed up as Indians or beating tomtom drums and having group hugs and trying to encourage men to cry. And, and I just thought, that's not what I'm about. That's not what I'm looking for. That's not what I'm missing. You know, it's like, so I, I sort of fought against it for a long time. But what I think is making me such a good man coaches, the women was such a big influence in my life the whole time, like I've had more women clients than men, although that's starting to change now. Because last couple of years, I've focused on men only. But I am a in disc profiling, I'm 50%, masculine and 50%. Feminine in my energy. So I think I'm a good conduit, having dealt with four daughters and a wife. But I don't know I always admire women for their traits. I think I bring that aspect or that perspective, and a man being a man and being 50% masculine in my energy, I can see what motivates them and the way they think and what they need. At the same time, I think I've got that other perspective, the softer side, the listening, and the understanding. And I think I bring a special picture. And that's why I think I'm a little bit special. And I'm using that towards men now.

Ian Hawkins: 1:21:16

Love that. And I agree with you with what you described there. I've been I've been down those paths. And there is value in that. But my experience, the common man, that that's too scary, like, that's too too big a step. That's not what they want.

: 1:21:37

Well, it could be fun. And it could be cathartic and everything. But I don't think that that was my problem, none of it was mixed up with me having an alpha male deficit. And so you know, or or being, although I couldn't cry all at one stage, I didn't need to sit around a group of strange men and learn how to do that, that I needed to understand on the sort of person who has to understand why things are happening. And I really love addressing causes instead of symptoms. So just to sit around and treat the symptoms around a campfire with other men was never my cup of tea. So that's the thing special about me is that I am that way. And maybe that's what I need to bring more out to help people like me.

Ian Hawkins: 1:22:19

Well, you've brought Hayford out today, Steve, I'm looking forward to seeing that pamphlet up more because of the work that you've done, right. And I can tell how passionate you are. And I thank you for coming and sharing your passion in here, sharing your story and giving so many pieces of wisdom for the listeners. Thank you.

: 1:22:38

Well made. I want to thank you too, because it's been a thorough pleasure. I love talking about myself, but I love to give him the opportunity to do that on on your podcast and to really finally meet you face to face even though it's online. Because I know we've chatted a fair bit online but never had a face to face course. So thank you very much.

Ian Hawkins: 1:22:57

You're welcome. I enjoyed it. Thanks, Steve. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly wanting to heal your unresolved or unknown grief, let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Wilkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform