Finding Physical Fitness After Grief with Christine Taylor

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfilment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the and Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work. I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. Welcome, everyone, and welcome to this week's guest, Christine Taylor. Christine, how are you?

Unknown Speaker 1:08

I'm good. Thanks to you. And how are you? Really

Ian Hawkins 1:11

good. Thank you. We had the pleasure of meeting when our daughters went to school together way back when mines just turned 18. Yours must be fast approaching.

Unknown Speaker 1:20

Yes. Turning 18 Very soon. Exactly. Yeah. So 18 years ago, almost. Yeah, yeah.

Ian Hawkins 1:27

And what a journey. It's been watching them. And I know you've got other kids as well. But yeah, it's there's never a dull moment. Right.

Unknown Speaker 1:37

That's a busy time. That's for sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Ian Hawkins 1:40

So Christine, you're a personal trainer and a nutritionist, which to me is such a fantastic combination. Can you tell everyone a bit more about what you do? And what you've learned over the journey?

Unknown Speaker 1:55

No, sure. Yeah. So the fitness journey started first with me. So I was at University in England doing actually a business studies and HR marketing degree. And I was looking for work, and I was doing training. And so I was offered classes to, to teach at the gym. I thought that's great, because I love exercising. And so I did a qualification to be a group fitness instructor. And at the time, my dad said, Oh, what are you spending the money on that for? You know, you're at uni and I said, Dad, I'm going to earn more money. So I used to teach like a class or two classes. At the time, I used to get 15 pounds an hour, which probably doesn't sound a lot, but just to put them in context. Yeah, if you're working at a pub, or a restaurant at that time, it was about three pounds an hour. So I got 30 bucks or so 30 pounds for the night and, and it was really lucrative, and I loved doing it. So that's where it started. And then I really wanted to have a career in the fitness industry. That's where my interest was really ignited. But I wasn't quite sure how that was going to work in terms of actually paying the bills full time. So I went into more of an HR role with my degree and just kept teaching fitness part time. I did early morning classes before lunchtime classes, evening classes. And then when I met Matt and moved to Australia, I got an international transfer with the company I was with and did three days in the Sydney office and found out I was expecting again, I'd already had Isabella in the UK. So oh my gosh, how am I going to work full time with a baby and be pregnant have a second child I really can't do the corporate 12 hour day anymore. I'm going to set up newborn fitness and try this is the perfect opportunity to set it up. So I set up predominantly postnatal fitness meeting mums along the way and it just developed from there I thought I might go back to the corporate world and thankfully I haven't haven't needed to it's just been I just love helping people to get fit and healthy and obviously it's evolved over the years I've done different courses but a nutrition was such a critical part of that that I was giving some advice within my scope of practice and I decided to actually do a course and that was the one thing that came out of lockdown for me it was I was able to study a lot more and I managed to get my qualification to be a certified nutritionist. I had done a nutrition qualification in the UK prior to moving here and parts of that were recognised and not so anyway, I just needed to update it and get certification here so that I'm insured here and can give nutrition advice in Australia. So yeah, that's what I did last year. So yeah, really works hand in hand together. I can't you know But the journey particularly with health has to be both both components really?

Ian Hawkins 5:05

Yeah. Only further into that sort of realisation like newborn fitness. Hello. I'd never worked that out before. But you had a newborn? Like,

Unknown Speaker 5:15

yes, that's when I started started sort of diversifying out from PII and postnatal, as like, do I keep the name and I did, because a lot of people feel kind of reborn again, with a new lifestyle. So it still fits, I think, with my business model. Because it's very much like when you lose 20, or 30 kilos, when you start to be able to run or do a triathlon or do anything that you haven't been able to physically do. Or if your blood pressure drops, if your cholesterol drops, you just start all those things, you are a new form of yourself. So yeah, yeah, it actually

Ian Hawkins 5:55

fits perfectly. Now for me along my journey, and you describe some things there that I went from not being able to do to being able to do, something that has really come through in the last few months for me from the conversations I've been having with people is just how important nutrition has been for that, like, I'd always been active. So. So I just assumed that there was the activity. But the more that I having conversations with people, how they, they're exercising so much, and they're feeling like they're not actually able to move the dial with their weight. So can you tell me how you see that how important it is to make sure that you're actually getting the balance of both of them? Both nutrition and exercise? And yeah, so specifically, that's the right type for each person as well.

Unknown Speaker 6:45

Yeah, I mean, it is so individual, because every everybody's physical activity level, or power, as we call it is different. So you could be the same age and the same height, and the same way to someone. But your job would determine your power. So you could be someone that works as a nurse, and you're running up and down all day long. Or you could be someone that's a secretary and sitting still all day long, and so your pals very different. So your metabolism will, will be set and very to that as well. The other really critical thing, what when I train people, like on TLC, for example, is we don't just do the exercise classes, your daily steps are really important. So keeping your total daily energy expenditure up, around 10,000 steps a day minimum, which would mean you know, maybe a walk at lunchtime or walk before, before work or after work, if you're not in an active bar makes a huge difference. And then I guess there's two things like obviously, everyone's probably heard, move more, eat glass, but it's much more complicated than that. You know, I see a lot of, for example perimenopause, or menopause or women, your hormones play a factor. Your, your macros make an enormous difference to what you're, what you're so the three main macros being protein, fats, and carbs, obviously. Now, carbohydrates and protein have the same calorific value. So you've got four calories per gramme in that. And so one would say, Okay, well, if I'm counting calories, like some meal plans would do, that doesn't matter. But yes, it really does matter. Because if you are a long distance runner, you're going to need a higher carbohydrate source if you're looking to build muscle. And other factors, for example, I see young, younger children that perhaps haven't developed, and they're looking at hormone replacement with an endocrinologist but also just looking at their dancing. Okay, well, you're not eating anywhere near enough protein. And I know, for my son, he would eat carbs till the cows came home and lots of pasture, which is great because it's cheap, and it's filling, but in order for his muscles to grow, which is what a lot of young boys are looking to do need to develop their strength in a positive way. We need to look at the amount of protein lean protein they're getting. And something as simple for us would be for will to make a protein shake, you know and have a fruit smoothie with a scoop of protein and it's a really easy way to boost that and it's quite successful in building your protein spindles which when provided your weight trained or done some resistance training that those spindles will then thicken with that extra protein so and we were chatting before in about immunity about protein in his immunity building macro, so when we're looking at cold and flu season and COVID There are things that you can do that will boost your immunity like eating more protein, getting outside and and vitamin Day and you save it in in vitamin, vitamin vitamin, vitamin D, a big boost for your immune system. And I coming from England was a real sun Queen person like, Oh, we're gonna burn gonna get skin cancer, don't want to get wrinkly lather up with sunscreen, because that's what you know we want to do with our kids. But you do actually need some skin exposure. So, you know, obviously in the summer, you're not going to get but when you're going for your walk around the block with the dogs just leave your arms or your legs with some skin open, you know, so that you can actually absorb some of the vit D because your body really needs that. And amazingly, lots of people I know when they have their bloods done they've it is really low in Australia. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's just recover ourselves. And we have sunscreen on

Ian Hawkins: 10:50

100%. That was where I got to as well. And so the suggestion was to take take a vitamin D supplements, which I did for a short while and then decided I would try exactly just get a bit more sun, obviously, since all about it not going out and getting too serious, but just finding times and I think you mentioned that you if you're in a nine to five job where you're indoors, if you're a nurse or any of those sorts of roles, well, then typically you're missing sunlight. So often, it's just so important for those windows to get out.

Unknown Speaker: 11:21

Yes, exactly. Right. That's why I lunchtime walk around the block. And I know it's hard people say I can't get away. But you know, for your health, it's really important to get those steps in, get a break mentally and get some sunshine on your face.

Ian Hawkins: 11:35

All the research will say that the break away from your work will allow you to be far more productive after that break anyway. And so it's this, there's so many reasons. You can give yourself so many excuses why not to but the reasons like from a scientific and research bait base position to show that yeah, the brain is going to be long term more beneficial.

Unknown Speaker: 11:54

Absolutely. And I was in a pharmaceutical company yesterday where I do a corporate wellbeing sort of session at lunchtime, and we were talking about exactly that those heart feel fantastic. All we do is some stretches, it's nothing to you know, it's not a hot and sweaty, we mobilise and we stretch, and we get a bit of core strength, and it's short, and it's sweet. And they all say I feel fantastic. I'm trying to get my friend along, and they say they're too busy with work. And so when you tell your friend, he's going to be far more productive. But you know, all the research shows that he will feel better mentally, and he'll be fine. His productivity will increase significantly after a quick recharge. So you're right. And I know it, you know it, it's like getting the message out there is life. That's my saying movement is live, who doesn't feel better, when their body has moved, we'll do

Ian Hawkins: 12:42

100%. For me, the movement used to be in corporate was on walk down to the coffee shop and get another coffee. But of course that created a whole other problem and adrenal fatigue. So if anyone's in that position, that it's definitely something worth pursuing as a fresh air break. The other thing that came to mind, Christine, while you were talking was I did a fair few terms with you doing Pilates. And I started Pilates through necessity because my back gave out and I had a couple of I had a defect and an old injury in my lower spine. But interesting thing happened when I started doing it was my hips started hurting less. When knees started hurting less, my ankles started hurting less, because suddenly I wasn't relying on them to hold me up. It was all this natural core. And of course, most of us are sitting at desks and we're not doing it. So is that as important? Or is that just me from a personal perspective? Or is that how important is that for people's ability to be able to exercise at a greater level to get that core strength?

Unknown Speaker: 13:48

I mean, absolutely. I think anyone regardless of whether you enjoy soccer or or rugby, or basketball, or netball, whatever your sport is, or even if you're not a sporty person, actually, everyone should be doing politesse because your core strength is fundamental or your postural muscles and everything in you. If you find someone that can, you know, either regress, it will progress, the move, you're gonna have all different levels in the class and will be something suitable for everyone. With the exception of you know, there might be some specialist back injury, you'll need to see a specialist trainer about one on one. But for most people, Pilates is a huge is a huge, huge benefit. And I think we should start there strengthening the postural muscles. And indeed, I've got a group of girls at one of the private schools here and they're elite rowers. And they are getting a really good stretch of me once a week and we're doing strengthening. They their backs are very strong. They're muscular, very strong, but they don't stretch out in that anywhere near enough so we were just doing lots of stretching and their performances. Well, I can't take credit just because They do Pilates, but certainly they're important. They're important. Their performance has improved with a number of factors that they've been working on. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 15:08

Yeah. Well, it's the power set the right I imagined for rowing. Yeah. Would be would be just foundational.

Unknown Speaker: 15:14

Yeah. But also, if you think about the contraction, I mean, I said, I say that a lot of teenagers that, that I train her everyone wants these abdominal muscles. How many sit ups unconscious? Have you done in your life? Okay, how many backward movements have you done? I bet you hardly any. For every muscle you've got, you've got an opposing muscle and you need to be balancing that out. So you know, when I train for for young lads, and they want to benchpress a heavier weight, for every lift that we do on bench, we need to strengthen the back, you need to work the opposing muscles. So it's just building a balanced programme and, and educating people to that, and then overall performance will improve significantly.

Ian Hawkins: 15:59

Yeah. And to me, that would be the key part about seeing someone like yourself, so that you know what you need to do specifically and making sure that balance, because if you're just hitting the gym, and just, you know, focusing on the bits, you want to get bigger, well, then you get an injury or something later.

Unknown Speaker: 16:16

Yeah, and we all we all enjoy training a particular area or on a focus. So it's just getting a balanced programme where you're doing a very, and indeed, I think cross training really is the way to go. I mean, obviously, if you're a professional in a sport, you've got to train in that. But making sure in addition to that, you are doing your stretching and your Pilates, and looking at the whole programme and having a swim or, or doing your meditation or your mindfulness or whatever it takes for you to work at the come at your look at your performance in a holistic way, rather than just training because there's so much more to that, for your health and fitness.

Ian Hawkins: 17:00

Yeah, I'd love to dig a bit deeper there. Because I know that what you're talking there about holistically, particularly for people carrying excess weight, what we carry so much from from a mental and emotional perspective, for a lot of men. And again, this is generally speaking, we might carry a lot of that as physical pain. And there are women that carry like fluid retention, and all these different other ways of carrying because they're literally carrying the weight of the world, from looking after their children, all these sorts of things. And so how do you help the different people that you see, like change how they're thinking about things? So they can come from more of that holistic perspective, and not just how they maybe have shown been shown previously?

Unknown Speaker: 17:48

Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think that it's a gradual process, I think. So for example, when I put on my socials like Instagram, the before and after photos of people that have lost weight with me, I always get an influx of inquiries. Oh, my gosh, how did you do that? 30 kilos, I want that. I'm like, Okay, this is this is what's involved, this is not a short fix. This is a process and this, this and this, and this is what you need to commit to because it really is, I'm not a personal trainer, that likes to hammer on about weight loss, because for me, it's so much more than that, it's so much more, it's being able to see them run five kilometres, when they couldn't walk around by that part, when I meet them, it's to me to see them, their self confidence grow and then do something for themselves that they would never have been done for themselves before. It's far, far more about their mental health and well being. However, when you're marketing, weight loss is always always going to be Trump's, you know, in a marketing tool. So you put those photos up, and you know, I'll say the clients Yeah, well, it really is a conjunction of, you know, exercising more, let's find something that gets you moving more and, and just anything, it doesn't matter if it's a bushwalk. I do weekly brisk walks, it could be a running club, it can be working out at Robert Park, if they want the social interaction, Pilates on a mat, anything they can choose whatever they want to do just to start the moving and to start looking after their body. And then we'll look at the nutrition in conjunction with that. And just simple simple changes to start with you can't Jen genuinely say do this, this and this isn't this in one the first week he just might say okay, this week, I want you to increase your protein a little bit more. And I want you to drink more water. And you might start with two two things. And then once they're in that habit and that habit is formed, you'll then change something else. I think sometimes that's the way to go. And I also really feel it has to be sustainable and there are many gyms that will do like a six week or eight week challenge where you You are on a very low calorie diet for six weeks. And you focus on doing as much exercise as you can for those six weeks. And of course they are, they are successful. And there's a place for those with some people that want to do that. I'm not bashing them, I'm saying there is a benefit in that for some people. But invariably, once they finish that, have they learned the tools, most of the people I train are the main shopper are the main Cook, have they learned the tools to be able to then move forward and cook their own lunches and dinners for the family. And the other thing that I'm really mindful about is having teenage girls, so I can't sit there and have a separate meal to my family every night? Because, oh, is that me? No. Because, you know, I want to be able to sit and enjoy my family meals. We don't eat together every night. But sometimes we do. And it's important that there is a prevalence of eating disorders and for males and females. And I think, particularly with social media, and the huge pressure. I mean, it was hard enough being a teenager when we were teenagers, but add social media to the mix. And it's just a nightmare for our teenage girls, it's really hard. The messaging they get, and most of the photos may well be airbrushed or photoshopped, etc. And, you know, snatched in at the waist, etc. But I think that the messages that we send needs to be still really about health and being able to eat a family meal, most of the time, and preparing meal is important.

Ian Hawkins: 21:40

Yeah, and having teenage kids myself I can, I can definitely relate to that being the role model, rather than trying to expect them to do something that you're not even doing yourself so important. One of the words you use, they're sustainable, I think that's true. If you're trying to improve in any area of your life, if it's not going to be sustainable, if you're not teaching skills that people will be able to take forward and continue to use and continue to change habits. Then again, it's just another one those quick fixes that will do them a disservice because I'll need the help again, in the not too distant future.

Unknown Speaker: 22:15

Absolutely, and it's a lifestyle. That's the key thing I tried to say it is a lifestyle. It's a long term lifestyle, your health. With the short fix. Invariably, when weight is lost quickly, we always see a rebound. And in most cases, the research shows that you actually increase your weight. So you might lose 20 kilos, over six weeks having a milkshake, which tastes like cardboard and you feel hungry and miserable the whole six weeks, and then you'll come back off it and you'll rebound and most often you'll gain 25 kilos, you'll end up heavier than where you started at your setpoint huh, yeah. Yeah. So health is, is really paramount. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 22:59

Yeah. You mentioned before that you moved from the UK over to here. Now, mostly when I talk grief, it's fairly obvious examples of it. But I imagine that in itself must have presented a whole lot of challenges given that you're going away from a life that you've known. You've only known that wave. Yeah, cultural perspective. I know it's similar here but but culturally different. And away from all your friends that you've grown up with as well. Like how challenging Yeah,

Unknown Speaker: 23:32

yeah, I think I was underprepared for the enormity of it. You know, you fall in love, and you marry someone that you love deeply. And, and we actually had our first child over in the UK. And I really wanted to give it a shot. I mean, I've been to Australia before and loved it as a country. I think travelling as a single woman, and moving here with a baby were perhaps a little different. And I really missed having my mom and my family around. You know, when raising the babies, I did really miss that. I was blessed that my mother in law is a beautiful lady that very much cared for us. However, she was working full time at the time. So you know, wasn't really able to help out a lot, but she was great. But ya know, I mean, I joke because when I had my second child, I didn't really have any friends or know anyone. And the Willie. Matt was driving in with our eldest, Isabella and she threw up in the car seat everywhere, she became unwell. And he didn't want to bring a sick child on to the maternity ward, you know, with a newborn baby. So Matt and Bella couldn't visit me. So I had no visitors and no one else. And so I know friends that no family might come come in. And so my visitor was a social worker and she came in and she's asking me all these questions. And I laugh about it now, I think that oh, gosh, we've got, you know, postnatal depression here. And I actually probably did have a little bit of postnatal depression that wasn't diagnosed. But, you know, it was, it was a challenging time for sure. And I did have one lovely person I just met come a few days after it's so sad. But, ya know, it was, it was a difficult time. And I think, you know, just starting a new life again. In a new country, yeah, this challenge, just,

Ian Hawkins: 25:38

just that moment in itself would have hit home all of those things I imagine because you, I guess you fast forward to the birth your next child, when you meet, meet a lot of people everyone wants to come visit, right. So that must have been so difficult in that.

Unknown Speaker: 25:52

Ya know, when I had my third child, I had a good friend by then that was also pregnant. And I remember being at home and getting that little text message from my friends saying, just pleased to announce the birth of medicine, blah, blah, blah. And then I'm saying, Okay, I'm just going into labour. So you in a few hours, and I literally, was upstairs, and I gave birth to will and, and I had a friend in the maternity wards. So that was really lovely. And we sat and chatted and with our newborn, so yeah, very different experience a few years later, but yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 26:31

so it's reminded me of our first child, similar, but very different. So. So Haley came really quite fast. And it was quite traumatic for Kate, and the sounds that were coming out of that room would have been scary. Anyway, one of our friends, friends were there. And they heard the sounds when are we going in? And so their first child, they're terrified, because they're hearing these ungodly noise. Much different experience. But yeah, it's always like that, I promise. Very good. Okay, so that was the first real big moment in your life, but then we fast forward to the next, like, literally, life changing moment. So could you share a bit about that? And how that really?

Unknown Speaker: 27:21

Yeah, sure. Um, if I'm, my voice goes wobbly, I still find it challenging. I'm happy to talk about it. I actually really liked talking about my brother. But people often don't want to ask about it, because I do have, you know, it's also upsetting at the same time. Yeah. But the probably the next big moment was when I lost my brother, and he was in the UK. And it was a real shock. I came. I came home. I came home and Matt and my mother in law, were at my house. I'd been out for coffee actually with a friend and I was like, Oh, what are you doing here? And they just both looked like ashen. And, and Julie said, I'm gonna just take take the girls, and I had just given birth to well, so I took I said, Well, I just need to put oil down for a nap Malik. Okay, I was feeding him. So I fed him and put him down. And then yeah, Matt just said, Look, your dad's called us and your brothers passed away. And then I don't really remember much. It was just a huge shock. And then I had to get I didn't have a passport for we'll because, you know, he was just a newborn. So and actually, I hadn't met, I let my own passport expire. Because the lesson for his or her never, or I will always have an upset passport now because you never know when you're going to need to travel when you're from a different country. And so my lovely husband drove down to Canberra at like three o'clock in the morning, and was like, got to help my wife get on this flight got to get back to the UK. And so he sorted it out and I went back but just a lot of numbness in that early stage classic. I mean, I've done a lot of reading on grief and, and understand it much better now. But it's really about you know, the grief hitting you but you being so numb to get through what you need to get through. So I flew back I luckily had a beautiful friend in Singapore that I stopped off with for just a night so that I can put William to bed and feed him there and they saw me on the plane and I got back to my parents to help to arrange the funeral and I actually did see my brother which I'm glad I did because when you have when you have a death that is overseas, I'm told now that Not seeing them in can really make it hard for you to get to the point of acceptance where you, you know, because I didn't see him every day once I moved here. So actually acknowledging that, that he had passed, and I actually prayed over him with my mom, you know, that provided a little bit of closure in that very early stage. Yeah. But I was still very numb. Yeah. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 30:33

I mean, I can't, I've thought about this a lot with with different people like that plane trip. Like, just goes for so long.

Unknown Speaker: 30:44

So long, I was blessed that I had, will you when you've got a baby, your motherly instincts kick in, I had to feed him I had to eat. You don't feel like you think that something's going for for him. And he was a precious little baby mom. So you know, your motherly instinct kicks in to be strong for him. And I also felt like I just tried to be strong for my parents, because, you know, the grief of losing a child there is? Well, it's just extremely hard. And my parents would know, the same thereafter. But also, I, again, after seeing a grief counsellor have learned that the sibling, the loss of a sibling, now, a sibling relationship is the only relationship in your life where you share your whole life with them. So what I mean by that is your husband you meet whenever you meet them, or wife or whoever, and your parents, you will tend to sadly pass away as you get into middle age or whenever. Whereas your sibling, you have you know, each other as a, as a toddler, as a child, on your, on your family holidays, you're at each other's weddings, usually. Usually, you know, you'll see the birth of your children and or if they get married and, and through your life when your parents usually pass you with your sibling, arranging the funeral or, or talking through their wishes. Ideally, I know that there's some family dynamics that don't allow for that, and I appreciate that. But yeah, for me, that was where the loss came from that, you know, and particularly since, you know, as you know, losing parents, I've been always like, I've done everything on my own. Thankfully, I've got a supportive husband. And he's fantastic. But he's not my blood, in terms of James would have been the person I would have arranged everything. Yeah, yeah. So

Ian Hawkins: 32:55

how do you reconcile that? When, when something like this taken away, because even even though we, we go through the process, and we understand and all these sorts of things, like it still must be? You must feel ripped? I mean, I can't put words in your mouth. Do you feel like you've been ripped off? Because you haven't? Because of all those experiences that you haven't got to experience with James?

Unknown Speaker: 33:18

Um, I don't anymore. No, I don't I've, I've reached a point of acceptance. And that's taken a lot of steps to get there.

Ian Hawkins: 33:28

So maybe going through that, there might be like, how, yeah, okay, just to talk through Well, how did you get through those steps to to write, I'm

Unknown Speaker: 33:39

happy to talk through that. And I, again, this is my journey. So I'm not saying you know, that this will work for everyone. But this is just how I got to that point, I think initially, going over there, being with my family in the UK, and then coming home. For me, I'm not saying this is the right thing, but I launched myself into work. And I was like working and I was doing everything. I was caring for the kids. And I thought, you know, I'm just gonna keep going, I'm just going to keep going because that was the sort of person I was, but unfortunately for me, I hadn't dealt with it. And so about six to eight months after Matt and I had a disagreement, nothing major, just small, marital disagreement. And it set me over the edge. I was crying and crying, crying, and then I was crying in bed and I couldn't get out of bed. And I just said like, this is not normal. What's going on? And I went to the GP. I thought I might need an antidepressant. I didn't know. Some counselling maybe. Unfortunately, I didn't see a very helpful GP. But nevertheless, they did Mental health plan for me suggested I go to see a counsellor. So I started seeing a grief counsellor, probably about six to eight months after James passed. And then I think that's when the work started. In the first few sessions. I just sat there and bawled, I cried, and I cried, she must have thought Who is this nutcase? Now, she thought that I was just, it was like, I was letting it all out in a safe little room because I could, I didn't really know, I was just crying and just kept saying, I miss him. I miss him. I miss it. Makes me feel sad now saying it. But you know, and that's when the work started on myself. And she gave me strategies, I started reading books, I realised that what I was feeling was normal, you know, the shock, then the anger than the upset and just starting to process it. And I think because it was a shock, now I've lived through walking through someone dying next to me with cancer, and the shot and there is no, there is no easy. There is no easy way. And I've heard some people say that easy. There's, I don't think it's easier either. Either way, it's just a different different walk a different process, and you have someone that knows that they are dying, you have perhaps time to get plans in order to ask their wishes to you know, I plan a few things on the practical side in terms of estate planning and things like that. But I mean, really, is still no easy journey. Ya know,

Ian Hawkins: 36:41

and I think people lose who may be suggesting that, from my experience, it's usually early on, when the whole wave of it hasn't really yet. And it's interesting, you say that sort of came late for you? I think that's something you said, there is something that I've heard so many times, and I think it's really important for us to just reiterate, you said, I know you were joking, you said oh, she must have thought but because you know that she's not is the amount of people who have said to me, or this is gonna sound this, or you must be thinking this. And it's like, no, that's not what dealing with grief looks like. It's actually completely unique for everyone. Whatever you're feeling is completely normal. It's, and it's okay. And if there's a whole lot of other stuff coming to the surface as well, that's normal as well. And I know when we connected to talk about the possibility of doing this chat about a month ago, these are the conversations we're having, right like normalising all this sort of stuff. So yeah, you I know you're about to dive in there. What were you gonna say? Sorry?

Unknown Speaker: 37:47

And, and it's pretty. It's really different for each, not not a week. So my grief for James was very different to my grief for my dad, which has been very different to the grief for my mom. Yeah. So, you know, for people that sit and comment or potential in judgement. I mean, I don't have a problem with that. Because I just think, well, I don't think you maybe have the life experience yet to actually, you know, comment on that. So probably best keep your opinions quietly to yourself. But anyway, for those that have been through any journey, it's very interesting to ask them what has been your experience, but I do think people are very reluctant to talk about it, because you do get an emotional response. Excuse me. And, you know, that can be confronting people don't like to upset people they think they're being and and I get that, I get that. But I do like it when people ask me because significant, and I really value that I think it's important that we remember those people agreement. Yeah, and they're always with you.

Ian Hawkins: 39:08

Yeah. I just want to just validate what you said, there is like it. If you're not sure what to say, Just say something or ask a question and allow it to unfold because even though it may be upsetting, it's just so valuable. Like I remember, days after dad passed away. I'm like, I don't want to talk to anyone. But I just want someone to call, which makes no sense, right? Like, I wanted to keep real myself but I also wanted them to have a space where I could talk to someone that wasn't in my immediate vicinity that we'd already you know, family if you're sort of you say all that you need to say but it's just good to hear a different voice or any conversation is valuable.

Unknown Speaker: 39:58

So As long as like that little sketch, you may have seen with Winnie the Pooh or Piglet, and he just sits down next to him. And he's like, I'm sorry, you're feeling sad. I'm gonna sit next to you, I'm just gonna sit next to you. And it's that kind of thing. I'm just gonna be here, I'm just going to be by your side. And that so well, he's just let me be like, I I'm not, I don't really watch TV or have time for things like that. I'm usually training people in the evening or doing chores, and I'm not a big TV lover. And then that month or six weeks after mom died, and it's very hectic, arranging the funeral doing everything, and I came home. And I just watched Netflix, so much. Netflix, you usually crime shows like I've ever watched, I was just obsessed with Matt was like, it's all about these murders of death row. And I was really, and I just thought, you know, I just I'm switching off, I'm zoning off, and I'm really enjoying this, but just let me be just let me be, you know what I mean? And so it was different again, and or watching a whole series of something in a few days, which again, isn't like me, but you know, sometimes you just need to do that. Yeah, that's okay, too.

Ian Hawkins: 41:27

Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting you say that, because that's what I found myself doing at different stages to was like watching more of that sort of crime stuff like Sopranos. And then I went Sons of Anarchy. And then I started having nightmares about people getting killed in them, I probably push this too far. But I wonder if it's like, when you're watching these experiences, where at least it's allowing you to feel emotions, even if it's vicariously, so that you can process?

Unknown Speaker: 41:56

Yeah, I know, or, you know, watching something like Brigitta, which is a love story, which, you know, like a bit of happiness and love. Good happy ending?

Ian Hawkins: 42:07

Yeah, exactly. You mentioned the, you know, like, the connection with your brother. I can't remember words, you said, but we were talking about this, when we when we connected a while back. And it's like when when people pass it's kind of acceptable that you talk about talking to them in those early days, and, and like saying what you need to say, but then maybe a couple of years down the track, I think you said, but then that's like people kind of might look a bit strange. But to me, it's like, whatever we can believe we're connecting to whether it's the memory or the energy, or if you believe in talking to someone from the other side, it doesn't matter. But there is so much value from a healing perspective, to be able to have that conversations and to be able to feel like you're connecting you in a way that is meaningful, right?

Unknown Speaker: 43:03

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, again, it depends on your personal stance, like I have a faith so I do believe in heaven and you know, I do get some comfort from that. And if you believe there is an afterlife or something thereafter, then for me, it would be even harder to think well that's it, you know, that's it. I like to believe and I do believe that. That they are reunited they're together and I can talk to them I can pray or whatever your medium is, you know, that's that's what I think. I think there's comfort in that for sure. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 43:45

Yeah, absolutely. Going a little bit deeper again. Have you been I've asked a few people this and got some interesting answers. Have you ever got the sense that that maybe that like a sign that they were there the guy I spoke to last week? Yeah, he was talking about with flowers falling down at a time when he was kind of asking those questions and and it's Yeah, so yeah, yeah, please do share.

Unknown Speaker: 44:19

I've definitely had moments where I felt a presence or like a spiritual moment and I think it's them but you know, you just you'd have that am I reading too much into it is a bit you know, I get comfort so one one of those for me would be when James for me running after James duck die was quite healing. I just took my runners on and go out and push myself and and have quiet times and I decided I was going to I just got up by hand. Even Jennifer, don't do this guys. I wouldn't recommend running a half marathon or not Joe Biden. got up and said to mountain, we're gonna go to Centennial Park and I'm running a half marathon, this one. And I hadn't trained properly for it, I just did it purely as a tool release. And the pain that I'm feeling through the hour, it was for me. And I sort of started off this half marathon and everyone's zooming past because I'm not super fast and semi passing pass, and then the wind was picking up, and it was a really strong wind and in the back half of the half maximum normally, I would expect he's slowing that when I haven't done a proper training schedule. I just felt the wind sort of pushing me along, it was a really strong wind. And I started overtaking everyone else. I've always people that run past me in the beginning. And I did not stop running once I just kept going to the wind. And I felt like, I felt like the wind or the Holy Spirit or whatever way you want to look at. It was pushing me along. And it was James, and he knew that I was doing that for him. And he was with me, if that makes sense. So I mean, there have been a few things. And usually it is when I'm pushing myself physically, that I feel that connection. And I turn the pain with there. It's weightlifters say that everything when you exercise has to be painful. I'm not saying that at all. But for me, and I know for other people that are runners or that have done an exercise that they do feel that it's very therapeutic. It is, you know, to release that or something that could take you in a negative spiral. Because I have to say, it's an exercise in my life. I could have so gone down the alcohol route, just when James died because I was a stay at home mom with three babies. You know, you could open a bottle of wine at three o'clock in the afternoon, if you chose to, you know, it was that kind of the only thing that was stopping me was I would teach a class when Mac came in with our team had come in, I'd go teach the time stepping drinking. So I didn't drink alcohol then. But I certainly certainly can relate to how alcohol would become a prop for you if you were grieving.

Ian Hawkins: 47:30

Yeah. Some of that was dropping out. So I apologise for those listening. But what what I got was when you were talking about the the wind behind you was just goosebumps all over like and to me, that's all a confirmation. I need that. Yeah, it's a presence there. That's that's meant to be there to connect you to that. Beautiful. And so I can definitely relate to that, that what you said there. Because Because alcohol has been a crutch for me at different points in my life. And I hadn't really thought about that from a perspective that you were talking about most so you're you're you're a mom, you're hurting, you've got these children you're looking after, but then you've got a whole lot of spare time to be lost in your thoughts, I imagine.

Unknown Speaker: 48:19

Yeah, exactly. And you know, that the routine of cooking dinner for your toddlers and whatever you know, is the perfect time so many people. So many people that I have trained that have been stay at home moms who have drunk started drinking at like four or five o'clock. And it's easily, you know, easy to have a bottle of wine. It's been I would say it's a problem. It's a problem.

Ian Hawkins: 48:54

Probably like a lot of these things bigger than what most of us will appreciate. So are you okay Christina for let's dig a bit deeper around some of these moments and actually, what that actually felt like with your with your brother and your parents so when you've been through this experience with your your brother, and then and then you said then your dad gets a diagnosis and it's not just about him passing but then having to go through and support him through that illness. When when he started to get sick. Did your thoughts turn to James and did you did you have thoughts about that, that time and thinking about what you've the future might hold for your dad or was it more just helping him manage and just throwing yourself into there?

Unknown Speaker: 49:50

Yeah, I think I didn't dwell on James I was very much okay. This is what we You need to do in this situation so I tend not to do well

Unknown Speaker: 50:11

I just got a phone call. Three o'clock 330 back okay, I don't know what happened that lost connection for a second sorry, no, I wasn't dwelling I sort of got a phone call to say, Dad had been at the doctor feeling dizzy and he'd had blood pressure issues. So we thought was connected to that. They took him to the John Hunter hospital and did a scan and they found so I just drove straight to Newcastle. And that was at four o'clock by six o'clock I was sitting the brain surgeon was telling me it was a brain tumour and they needed to operate. A really pivotal moment in my life again, you know, we can all think back, just a 10 minute conversation, everything shifts. So, two days later, he had brain surgery. Amazing brain surgeon did a fantastic job, but then they biopsy the tumour and they tell you what it is. And it was a GBM, which is a glioblastoma multiforme, which is a highly aggressive tumour. And it is a terminal tumour, he done a really good job of getting most of it out. However, just a couple of cells left will eventually grow back. So he had radiation and or chemo, which kept it at bay, and he had a really, really good 12 months. Was it 12 months, maybe 10 months, he was quite well, relatively speaking, obviously, he couldn't walk properly. But gradually he declined. And then when it came back, they came back and spoke very quickly. And it was it was a quick decline, I would say. But looking looking back a lot of people were saying to me, Oh, how you doing? How are you coping? I was driving to Nelson Bay twice a week because I had to help them the shopping and the so many medical appointments and things as you probably know, you've got cancer and, and nobody else in Australia, but me. They have their family. And so, you know, driving up and down driving him down three kids trying to keep small business going. Yeah, in hindsight was a really stressful time. And he had a lot of anxiety about about about death. I think that's quite common. He wasn't the sort of person that we go and chat to counsellor. So he chat to me. And he chat to mom and that so that was quite a lot. A privilege to support him, but also quite a lot. For me.

Ian Hawkins: 53:19

Yeah, what was that like when you're when you're? Because I know, it's exhausting. If you're not particularly good, a lot of other stuff going on, it's exhausting to to be able to hold space for someone while they're having those conversations, particularly while you're going through the challenge of watching the quality of your dad as well. Like how did you as you get through that time?

Unknown Speaker: 53:42

Look, it was almost a stressful it was there's no denying that because you know that last Christmas, he's here. I'm feeling like I've got to make this a really good Christmas, you know, want this to be so nice for everyone. And you're trying to be upbeat, and he was really upbeat, he was really well, he really, really wanted to make it fun. And he was so good. He was so brave. And he never complained. And I'm not just saying everyone says he really gave like really gave everything to make the kids laugh. And but we all knew and you know, I remember looking at William space, and we knew, like this is his last Christmas lunch. And, you know, it's it's it's a very difficult thing to navigate and to talk to, you know, and to explain death to children that asking lots of questions about it. Potentially their first experience because, you know, they were too young when James died to thankfully to have felt that really I mean that in the nicest possible way again, you know, they didn't really know him or the two young will was just a baby newborn baby. But they know my dad, they love to my dad, you know, he was a great grand grandfather to them and, you know, it's just such a lot, such a lot to support them to support my mom. To support, you know, it's a really, really tough time

Ian Hawkins: 55:09

to put strain on what every area of your life like I imagined for you and Matt, like, you're going, you're coming and going, or all these different things going on. You're trying to business he's he's working, he's probably doing long hours at different times. Like, how did you to manage through that? Which must have been just? Yeah, like I can't even imagine.

Unknown Speaker: 55:29

Yeah. Oh, good question. I mean, by the grace of God, I don't know. Yes, thankfully, we did. And we've grown through it. And there have definitely been arguments along the way when I've been tired or not wanting to communicate, and he's trying to support me, and I'm quiet. But I think when you've been with someone over 20 years, and you can say, look, it's not you, I'm just exhausted, you just, I just want like a come in, and I wouldn't have anything left to give them. And that's tough. And you know, and you feel this enormous? Am I doing a good enough job being a mom, to the kids, because I'm always up there. And I'm trying to do my best there. And I know a lot of people that I've trained have spoken about this sandwich generation where you know, our kids are still needing us. But my parents needed to but you see, I think what intensified the situation for me was knowing it was just me. So you know, if I'd had a brother or a sister to say, Can I have this weekend off, and you'd go up and see them this weekend? Can you do a shop and etc, if I'd had that extra support? Again, my mother in law was not far away. And she did a great job of helping me out. So I did have a little bit of support from her. So I wasn't doing it completely on my own. But the main burden of

Ian Hawkins: 56:59

I don't know if you've looked at it this way. But I just see, just from what I know, of where you've been, and where you are now is just an incredible strength that wouldn't have been there. Otherwise did. Do you see that? Or no, it hasn't happened in the most pleasant circumstances. But this, can you identify how this whole process has made you stronger?

Unknown Speaker: 57:21

Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, and there is a thankfulness for that. Because I truly believe that we only grow or we grow the most, when we're under pressure the most. And it's not pleasant, and it's not pretty bad. You know, I am a far more considerate, outward looking person than I was before I had been through this. When I think back to my teenage years, I was quite selfish, quite consumed about what I wanted, quite materialistic. And, you know, and I have to show grace to my teenagers. When I see some of those behaviours, I think, well, I was like that, you know, I was interested in the clothes and you know, what car I got next. And, and I don't really care about that so much anymore. I mean, I like to be comfortable, no doubt, but I'm not, I'm not really interested in any of that other stuff. And I will say that North Shore Sydney is very much like that. And it's one part of, of life that I am not like bringing my children up here has had many blessings and have had so many opportunities. And Australia is a fantastic country. But the North Shore attitudes, some of them I don't, I don't relate to and I don't really I try to get the kids to see it from a different angle, we do matter. And I try and get the kids to see it from a different angle. Because yeah, but absolutely. I mean, what do we tell our kids, you know, and what do we model? The best plants don't grow out of the best soil. They grow out of the you know, the windiest conditions when they're tested and restrained and appalled. And, you know, that's who they're the plants that grow the strongest, you know,

Ian Hawkins: 59:18

and, and yeah, and when they're on the ship, right,

Unknown Speaker: 59:24

yeah. Yeah, that's exactly. One second.

Ian Hawkins: 59:29

You're getting something

Unknown Speaker: 59:31

Sorry. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 59:39

You're Yeah. So another one of those areas of grief that that can be sometimes seen as difficult to talk about, because it does make us stronger and it does give us things to be thankful for, and I think particularly early stages of grief is trying to reconcile that The more that we can get past the different things, I'm not saying that's easy. That's why, you know, like you describe, you're going to have counselling and you and you go and get support in different places, is that the more that you can be appreciative, grateful, thankful for all of the positive that does come out and be able to do it in the space where you're not feeling guilty about that, like even laughing about, about different memories. And I can't remember, I don't know if you can relate to this, but the, the minutes, hours days afterwards, laughing and then going, Oh, should I shouldn't be laughing? And, and then and then that sort of continues for a long time. Like, is that something you can relate to yourself of like, by just struggling with the full range of emotions that comes through through those moments?

Unknown Speaker: 1:00:48

I think I think our family laughter is is truly a medicine. And I think having a sense of humour, in all, in all situations is really important. And it's certainly kept us going. I mean, I'll share with you a really beautiful, sad, but beautiful story. So when Mum was she declined very quickly. So was about nine days. And I went up there and was with her, and I phoned home and I said, Matt, I think you need to bring the kids up. I think this is her last weekend. And so they all came up. And when my mom, she was semi conscious. And that was on morphine at this stage. When my mom heard Matt's voice, she started chuckling she started laughing. He hadn't even said anything. And the reason that happened is every time that says my mommy makes her laugh, or tells a joke, he does a funny voice. He does a skit from a TV show. She always makes her laugh. She heard his voice. And she laughed. And, and that was the last memory that Matt and will have they left the room and she was chuckling at him all like this, in this subconscious, because they stay up hearings, the last thing to get and so Matt, so I'm not quite sure how to take that because she was laughing, maybe she maybe she just thinks I'm the family clown. But it was so sweet. Because it was just it sort of was typical of their relationship that that was light hearted that she liked to have a bit of a laugh with him. And so even in like those really sad moments, I think laughter does break it up and keeps you sane. And yeah, so I think it's a really important part of the process. But you don't always feel often they'll be sometimes you just can't get there. But yeah. In tight in terms of your healing, I think it's important. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Ian Hawkins: 1:02:59

And then we talked a bit about today about, you know, we're role modelling for our children through through all of this process and moments with your brother and your parents, like, what have you learnt that you're going to take for yourself not to teach specifically your children, that, you know, we'll make you a better person to be able to take for the rest of your life, which will, which will allow you to be a role model for not just your children, but just for everyone that sees you.

Unknown Speaker: 1:03:29

Well, I th ink certainly from arranging, you know, the funerals and from being the funerals, I think we can all probably agree that nobody really talks about what you've got, it's more who you are, and the relationships that you've had. So that for me is the number one thing you know, you could have one or two good friends and then be the salt of the earth and be with you for your whole journey. And you know, how lucky you to have them so it's really nurturing those relationships. You know, your family, to me, my family, everything, couldn't have got through it. And you know, and I call my family, Matt's family so the extended family I've got got a sister in law, I've never had a sister but I've got a sister in law, a brother in law. I've got nieces and nephews, a beautiful mother in law now who you know is that role model she's the only person we've got for all of our grandkids for my grandkids you know, at that sort of age and and level and aunties and uncles that have been very dear and cousins and that so I still have my family and the Isle of Man in in England that I'm hoping to go back and see but it's really it's really about relationships or doing things so spending money on creating memories rather than designer handbags and and fancy cars. I mean, I still like a handbag I gotta say. But you know, To really the important stuff. And I think that's the main thing I try to get the kids to see, because as I mentioned earlier, the North Shore can be very much. It's like HSCs upcoming, I think, Matt Meyer, probably only we know how to say this. Olivia was having a conversation with someone at school. And she said, what she was interested in doing and what data she needed. And the girl responded, oh, my God, my parents would kill me if I got that. ATAR because it wasn't a high flying ATAR. And I said, Oh, well, not, you're lucky that, you know, that's all you need them. But it's not even a lie. Wait up, man, she might not get it. Got the point is, I don't mind as long as she works hard and does her best. And that I know, and you know, won't define her life in any way, shape, or form. If she wants to do that, cause she'll get on it in some way. I think the pressure is on people. And I think there's a real lack of being a genuine person. I think there's a lot of fake status and Instagram and friendships about who's popular popularity is a real key thing. So I think it's really for us just about being real, being honest, being who you are being transparent, telling the truth that seems quite rare in some areas, and knowing who you are. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 1:06:31

Hmm. Love it. Well said. I think the comparison whether you're in the North Shore, which I'm on with USC, a lot of that or whether you're in any other part of the world, it's still happens throughout the Keeping Up with the Joneses, Joneses mentality. It's the comparison does do us any justice, like whether it's comparing to people I've got a better or comparing it to people who we might perceive did not have it as well. It's either giving us an inflated version of where we're at, or, or a deflated, which is not fair. And it's just just your own journey. And as you said, Being making experiences and relationships, the priorities is the important things.

Unknown Speaker: 1:07:12

Yeah, and you know, of course, I appreciate that in Sydney, it's an expensive place to live. And you've got to make a living, and I understand all of that. But I just think if you have have sought, then, and you put that as your priority. And then I would say with that being a Christian faith element, as well, whatever your faith may be that community and connection, resource, also a friend to me, excuse me,

Ian Hawkins: 1:07:47

well said, I couldn't agree with that more. Christine, thank you so much for sharing so openly and for shining a light on welcome shining a light on what's possible, even after going through three extremely traumatic events. And, and also for just showing, if you if you prioritise the right things, and as you said, your family but also things that you know, are going to bring you more health and well being then even through the darkest times, you can still come out the other side with with so much joy, right.

Unknown Speaker: 1:08:29

I've gotten a little reading here, and that was given to me by palliative care than I thought you might like to hear. It's yeah, it's very short. It just as I had my own notion of grief, and I thought it was a sad time that followed the death of someone you love. And you had to push through it to get to the other side. But I'm learning there is no other side, there is no pushing through. But rather there is absorption than adjustment. And then acceptance. And grief is not something you complete, but rather you endure. Grief is not a task to finish and move on. But an element of yourself an alteration of your being a new way of seeing and definitely an issue of self.

Ian Hawkins: 1:09:31

Oh, can you just read that last bit you said a new way of seeing it because it just dropped out a bit there

Unknown Speaker: 1:09:41

on my bed, sorry. Grief is not a task to finish and move on. But an element of yourself an alteration of your being a new way of seeing a new definition

Ian Hawkins: 1:09:57

beautiful Hi, Christine, thank you so much. I appreciate you having this time with me and sharing so openly and I appreciate you thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker: 1:10:12

Thank you. Thanks. Bye. Bye.

Ian Hawkins: 1:10:19

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief, let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favourite podcast platform