Ian Hawkins 0:02
Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the end Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. G'day everyone, and welcome to today's guests. Kevin Williams. How are you, Kevin?
Kevin Williams 1:06
Great. How you doing man?
Ian Hawkins 1:07
going very well, all the way from Ontario, Ontario, Canada. Always a pleasure speaking to people from other parts of the world. Now, you've got the legendary dad's podcast. Tell me a little bit about that.
Kevin Williams 1:23
That's really exciting. Yeah, that's something we just started a couple of months back and comes out of just I guess the journey that I've been on. It's kind of like the, the Yeah, I guess the result of just this journey I've been on in terms of my fatherhood and who I am as a man, and all of the exploring into that. And so it's, yeah, I'm looking forward to it as an opportunity to really share more with other men. Dads, especially, of course, because that's where I'm coming from. Yeah, see how we can become the best that we can be and leave the best that we have for our kids. Love that.
Ian Hawkins 2:04
We both went graduated from working with the good people at amplify you Michels business there. So it's always a pleasure connecting with other people who are like minded and working with good people. So before we jumped on, we were talking about a number of different areas for you. And the specifically, you know, we talk about grief in here and, and how you've had to overcome different moments. And you mentioned a few different ones. And I wanted to start with, with something that is prevalent for a lot of men and a lot of dads. So this will be good for your audience as well. And that you said you had a bout of depression after your first daughter was born. Like, how did that suddenly that spring up suddenly? Or that was a gradual thing like like, how did that all unfold for you?
Kevin Williams 2:59
It was pretty sudden, actually. And it's it's hard to say exactly what triggered it. I had well, I had discovered a little while before. My my doctor had actually put me on some medication around the time that I met my wife. It wasn't a full on depression that I'd had before. But it was a call it a dysthymia I guess it's sort of a low grade almost depression, but it's something that I'd lived with I never really realized. And so I was actually in kind of the best years and best state of mind been in when I met my wife. Then we moved, our daughter was born and we moved to Toronto for a new job. I was working as a youth pastor. If you can picture me, in downtown or in Toronto, in the middle of Jewish neighborhood, as a youth pastor in a Chinese Anglican church that was just the strangest kind of combination of I didn't have the long beard and, and crazy long hair at that point. But still, I'm I was just a very expressive guy. And it was it was an interesting match with the church that didn't, didn't last more than a couple of years. But yeah, it was a we moved into Toronto, and it just hit me one day, and I was out I was done. And it was my wife who was able to be really persistent in finding me a psychiatrist, actually, who was willing to work with me. Most of them don't around here, they just prescribe medication, but he was willing to do the psychotherapy with me and walk me through that journey. Which was quite an interesting thing.
Ian Hawkins 4:48
Do you do you look back at that time and even though there were certain struggles there, do you look at that time as a real powerful moment because suddenly you're you're able to going through different things.
Kevin Williams 5:03I mean, yeah, for what was it:
Ian Hawkins 6:43
And he's, and it's actually something that that guests often talk about is like, Well, I had an awareness, but then I couldn't, couldn't actually take the action. And that's something that I experienced, as well as like, when when my dad passed, I'm like, okay, cool. Well, I want my life to be different. But then I spent probably six years sort of running around in circles or on the treadmill or whatever, you know, the hamster wheel, whatever it is. So So what did you learn, specific for you, that helped you to be able to move forward in those times to actually start being able to take that action?
Kevin Williams 7:22
Oh, you know, I think the thing that really got me through that was just the steady support of others.
I honestly don't remember sort of a specific thing I know, with a psychiatrist, we were, we were talking about different different realities, and in terms of what's happening in my circumstances, and how I'm thinking about it. And I think that as far as I remember that it was, it was a lot of time just repositioning and recognizing the stress of the job that I'd walked into. Because I'm so different. And that, okay, this is so this is what the people at the church told me to this Chinese Anglican church. What they were saying, to me is part of the struggle and the pastor that was in charge as a part of the struggle is that I'm a very expressive, Canadian, white Canadian and, and he says the Chinese two things they don't like, generally speaking, this is a generalization. They don't, they're not as expressive emotionally, they're much more reserved and controlled, and quite a wide thing was is that that he said, they don't want to face mental illness. So those are his words. Nobody sent any hate mail. And no, I had a lot of support from the church as well there were a lot of people there that that were very kind and supportive. But we were different from the beginning. And then when we add on to that just the circumstances that they were first generation Canadian born kids that I was working with, and so they had parental struggles there. So I I think that I really recognized that I would just walked into a tense situation and it was a lot of pressure on me which wasn't vocalized yet but I'm a very I'm very sensitive to other people's feelings and into what's going on on a on a subconscious level. And so I think that that was really hitting me and, and my, my fight flight freeze response typically is freeze. That's that's most common one for me. And so that's why the depression was was a bit of a shutdown and a bit of processing of, of grief and losses and struggles from the past. You know, when we were kids when I was 12 when we I was 12, we moved from Canada to South Africa. And I did all my high school years there, which was a fascinating journey. We talked about another time, but interesting timing of that was that the year that I was 11, and turned 12. I switched in ice hockey, which is a big thing for most young boys here. To from defense to going to net. So I played goalie, and I aced I killed it. I was like, I had five shutouts in my, in my rookie year, and that I was MVP award. It was amazing. I found my place. It was like just, it was like, beautiful. And then we moved to South Africa, where, like, there was apparently ice hockey, but it was it was not something you want to be involved in. And very, very rare. So yeah. So I lost that. And I, I never really processed that, I think until way later. And I kind of thought about it. And you know, I probably would have made NHL and but yeah, that was just one of those things where I tend to accept what is. And so I think as a kid, when we moved made that move it was, you know, also I lost all my friends had to start all over again. And I guess part of my challenge is that that I do tend to just first accept what is and go with it. The downside of that is it means that I'm not processing it. I'm not going shit that hurts. I don't like that. I don't want I don't want this. I just kind of it's almost like rolling over I guess going well. Okay, well, that's what we got to do. So, yeah, here we go. And I'm really only upbeat honestly, I'm really only just putting this together that clearly right now as I'm so sorry.Ian Hawkins:
I think a lot of men will relate to that. Because that's that's often the experiences are sometimes in those early or middle teens, just just making a decision that just sort of shut everything down, whether consciously or unconsciously. But you're you're having that conscious awareness, then it's, it allows you then to to make sense of it as you go, even if some of it's just as you go now.Kevin Williams:
Yeah. And that's, and I think that's part of what came out of that initial depressive crash. was, yeah, really beginning to recognize some of the depths of that? Yeah. Yeah,Ian Hawkins:
that's a really great thing to highlight. Because, like you said, Oh, maybe we could talk about that, that moving at another time. But I think just what you summed up there is like, that's what a lot of people have experienced, whether it's by being forced to move or an opportunity that that ended, or just any experience where we we don't, we would separate it from friends or disconnect. I think everyone's had some sort of experience like that when we go through those school years, where the different people that we hang around with tends to evolve, right? So even if choosing to hang out with different people, there's still a sense of loss from that. SoKevin Williams:
yeah, yeah, and I don't and as I say, I don't think I've processed that. And it's, it was, I always find it interesting that, in that, in that move to South Africa, like when we we got there. I always remember I went to an all boys school first for just a few months at the end of their school year, and I would ride my bike in and they had these big cages where we would lock our bikes because it wasn't safe to leave them out. So I remember being in that bike lock cage, putting my bike in its place and locking it up, and kids would come to the outside of the cage. And they would they recognize me as the new kid from Canada who had an accent and so they just say to me things like Speak, speak. Like literally, they were just telling me to speak like I'm an animal in a zoo. And like, ah, and I was never great at making friends. But somehow I always had one or two really close friends. Yeah, cool. And yet, and yet it was a long time before I really felt like I was someone that people liked and we'd want to be with or that I wanted to put myself out to people and experiences like that one in this in the schoolyard. I think contributed to that but I think I seem to have underestimated and discounted I guess the the positives and the good relationships to some extent.Ian Hawkins:
Yeah, it's a great point. I think so often through life we do that right. We look at all the all the bad it's has to it has to be a natural reaction. What what on What I'm drawn to is when when you like, if we're looking through that lens of the legendary dads when when the children start going to school, and then suddenly, there are other parents and you're kind of going through a changing of the sort of people that you're gravitating towards anyway, because you tend to gravitate towards people who have got children the same age, how were you then able to navigate that as an adult? What what what skills through all your growth did you have in place that allowed you to make that transition easier into that community?Kevin Williams:
I didn't do well at that. Actually. My, my wife does, she knows half the town, we live in a town. Well, now it's about 40,000, I think, and his kids, and I was joking up, Mom knows that. I mean, goodness, some guy stole something from our property, and they got busted by the cops, and then the cop that brings the stuff back as the daughter or the son of one of my wife's elementary school teachers. So, but it's interesting, because for me, I've still until until recently especially been quite Shut, shut off and guarded. And so where we were meeting people at school, my wife was just jumping in and get to know them and make all these friends. And I was always, you know, these are my friends. These are the parents of kids and whatever. And it was still very guarded in that. And it's only been more recently that I've started to expose myself again, as it were, and be vulnerable again to, to reaching out and beginning to say, Ah, now these Why am I why don't I see these people as friends, they're my, my kids, friends, parents. And beginning to accept their friends into my life as a word in my heart as, as people that I know, and, and friends on a level. And then and then embracing that potential with their, with their parents. And that was, oh, I mean, and that really has come through the coaching that I've been through. Honestly, it's especially the last couple of coaches that I've been working with, who have really helped me to it's hard to even pinpoint one specific thing, but But recognizing the value and just being more aware of what I was doing, I guess, in terms of being closed off, just wasn't really aware of it. And I suppose it was just so familiar. I just thought, wow, that's, you know, that's the way it is, that's me and whatever. My wife likes talking to everybody, and that's fine. But then I, you know, I thought back, you know, the, the time when I met my wife, and I had just started taking the medication and so on. I was not like that I was actually very open. And essentially, everybody I met was just another friend that I hadn't met yet. Yeah. And there were times in my went to my sister's place when she was in university. And sometimes I was the life of the party, which people who have known me for the last, you know, 15 years, or 20 years up till recently what I thought, no, come by that. Yeah. So kind of record going back and recognizing well, and this was part of the, the gift as it were, and if I like to put it that way, but Paul, one benefit I pulled out of this healing journey from the recent years, it was that I've had the opportunity to just be slow and still in life, and really reflect back on all of this stuff. What we've been talking about so much more and kind of go okay, well, who am I really, like, if I look back from like, even childhood, like early elementary school, I was, I would come home from school every day with a new joke to tell the family. Yeah. And I was very open and trusting and fun loving, and creative. And, you know, trust first ask questions later, and things like that and, and recognizing that, you know, I haven't been like that for a long time. And I want to be like that because a that's who I am and be that's just more fun than what I was doing.Ian Hawkins:
Yeah. And I know that part of the catalyst for a lot of this change was around. Excuse me. The car accident you had Not Not so long ago. So yeah, could you tell us a little bit about without going into into the details, but, like, who was affected and how that impacted your life,Kevin Williams:
all of us were so the really brief version of the collision itself, we were at the drive in movie theater, which we used to do regularly, we, we still have done it, but so it's 115. In the morning, we're leaving, after watching the two movies and just pulled out onto the country road. Some guy was high on methamphetamines came across the road and hit us head on. I, I had enough wherewithal to just start turning towards the ditch, which apparently saved us because of the angle of the vehicle, we, we actually flipped over him and rolled over. So all six of us, my wife, and I and and four kids were all in the vehicle is quite interesting to hear the stories and to see the difference of what we remember and what we've experienced from it. But I mean, that absolutely is created a defining moment as it were for for all of us.Ian Hawkins:
Can I just jump in there? Yeah, I may. Because I want to hear more about that. But I'm just drawn to something that you said. Okay, so you've worked in these roles where you've been doing, you've been a pastor? And and I was gonna ask you about faith. But do you with those stories where you said all that different experiences, there is a part of you that kind of feels like you are protected through that?Kevin Williams:
Yeah, yeah. It's a weird thing. I have been, I mean, I was raised as Christian and, and then I went through a period of time where I kind of walked away from it. I didn't say God wasn't real, but I walked away from living out the faith and, and went, and, you know, sex, drugs and rock'n'roll kind of thing. And into my early 20s, around that time, and then, and then I came back to it. But I came back to it with open eyes and said, Okay, well, what do I believe? And where am I going with this? So it wasn't just what I was told I was exploring it for myself. So, yeah, I, my faith in God has had a lot to do with how I responded to, to pretty much everything sooner or later. And the I mean, the officer is the chief officer, like the lead inspector on that case, said he was shocked that none of us were dead. He said, that's, that's so so rare in that magnitude that nobody was killed. He was really surprised. So yeah, I mean, that adds a bit to that. And yeah, I don't know, if you want to go into all that. But you know, your your faith.Ian Hawkins:
I would, I would love to keep going.Kevin Williams:
I'm not sure what, you know. People will say, Well, if God is protecting you, why were you even in the collision? Well, you know, I, to me, I think stuff happens in life. Yeah, that I compare it, I liken it a lot to the family relationship. Right? We allow our kids to experience negative stuff. Big because we know it's not going to necessarily ruin them or kill them or you know, and then their life will let them experience negative things. In fact, they will fight against us on things that we know it's good for them, or we know that it's bad for them. So we're keeping them out of it. And they're like, they don't get it. They're just like, I don't see why you're just being mean, like, literally, that's what kids will say sometimes, right? Yeah, no, actually, I'm loving you. Kind, you just can't see that. So I take that perspective, a lot in life. And I say, Okay, so the collision happened, we all survived. And we've all been learning and growing so much through that. And, and one of the things that my wife and I said, I think she brought it up first, quite early in the healing process, like in the first couple of months, I think. She said, when we were sitting, talking together said, this is a moment that will either tear us apart as a family or pull us together tight. So there we made a conscious choice that well, we're going to do everything we can to make this a bonding and growing experience. That doesn't tear us apart. So that was part of a conscious decision that we've maintained through the healing process.Ian Hawkins:
Yeah, powerful. Just what you said there around well, like why didn't go To protect you from the accident all together. Again, if you believe in God, or the universe or an energy or whatever it is, it's like life will kind of give us what we need. And and what if the accident was protecting us from something else and other road war going down? Because if you think about the transformation you've been through afterwards, we'll guess sometimes, if we didn't hear the first three, four or five messages, then the message that comes stronger until we pay attention, right?Kevin Williams:
Yeah, that's true. And I mean, like, there's no question, especially for all six of us to be in the same collision, like the absolute chaos of the last six years, has been brutal. I mean, it's bad enough if one person is in a collision, or going through some major trauma, and the rest of the family are kind of processing and adjusting. But when all six of you are dealing with all different levels of injury from, you know, brain injury and PTSD to physical injuries to just the emotional losses and things. I mean, kids upset because their favorite, they were wearing their favorite sweater, and it got cut off when they were put in the ambulance. It's like, things that kind of now that go well, yeah, okay. But the sweater but at the time, you know, the our youngest was five. And it's like, that's a big deal. Yeah, so. But also, as you're, as you're alluding to, from my perspective, one of the things that this did is what I just mentioned a moment ago about, it's created this time for me because of the insurance, money and so on. It's created this opportunity for me where I don't have to work. Well, I couldn't work. But we had financial support through the insurance. So I'm able to take some time, just go. Okay, who am I? Where am I coming from? And where am I going? And how do I want this to look? That's been a huge gift. With I wouldn't choose to go this route. Yeah, yeah, that is something great that we can take out of it.Ian Hawkins:
Absolutely. And rarely do we get to choose the route, right? Like even if we have these plans, life tends to take us in a way that's going to work better, even if it doesn't feel like it. I kind of jumped in when you were talking about the different experience for the six of us. I'd love to hear a bit more about that. How it's funny the things that you remember through that accident. So what were some of the surprising things or moments or images or feelings that each one of you had?Kevin Williams:
Well, my dad told me afterwards that in the hospital, we all went to the same hospital fortunately, which doesn't necessarily always happen but said Hunter was talking about it like they were on a roller coaster Hunter was five is that he was describing it like we were went on some kind of roller coaster ride and it was all fun. And because he wasn't physically hurt at all. It well. And he was in the seat behind me when I was driving. And, and now he always sits in the seat behind me. Which is interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, he's aware of that. Yeah. So I don't make an issue. I was like, Okay, that's cool. That's where you feel good. Yeah, are the next oldest. She remembers as the vehicle was rolling, that she saw the popcorn, leftover popcorn from her bag was floating in front of her pasture. So yeah. And then, you know, then later on, the two oldest girls were in a conversation. And the one was physically injured. And she was in the front as well and was more physically injured. And the the oldest was not. And the oldest was saying some some comment about how, you know, the collision wasn't all that bad or whatever. And her younger sister looked at her like, what the hell you're talking about? What? Are you kidding me? My face is smashed, my arm is broken, are you? And so it's just, again, it's developing that awareness as we share the stories and perspectives. It's little things like that. Just build such an awareness of other people and different perspectives. I took the brunt of the physical injuries. Pretty much my whole left side was broken. Well, my wife got the worst of the brain injury. And then the the three kids who were in the back seat didn't really have any physical injuries but some had some concussion, brain injury and and it's all to varying degrees. Um, and you know, I've been thinking lately one of the things that is kind of sad to me and it, I suppose it seems silly, but you know, when I think about processing grief my our youngest Hunter was five, right? It sounds some reason it makes me kind of sad that he doesn't remember anything before the collision. His whole life begins in his mind, his life begins with a collision. And the healing of that. And yeah, I mean, he's, he's not he doesn't seem traumatized. But that's his perspective. And I, and something in me doesn't like that. But, but I mean, that's kind of normal, like most of us. Forget what happened before age five anyways. So yeah.Ian Hawkins:
That's really interesting. Yeah, well, I mean, I was going to actually ask you about that. The guilt that comes through grief, even if it's not our fault. Like, even if there's nothing that we could have done, except we still play out their heads. What if? What if I'd done this? What if I'd done that? So so how much does that play out for you? I can tell by the thinking back in the chair, perhaps you have grappled with this a bit.Kevin Williams:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that first hit in the hospital. Now, I was, I was knocked out. So I only have a couple of brief moments where my eyes opened when in the vehicle and on the way to the hospital. I think, three, three times, eyes opened and I was briefly aware of something going on. So I didn't remember that. Really. But waking up in the hospital, the first thing was I knew that we were in a collision and and nobody was around me like there was nurses. But at first is nobody there. I'm in a recovery. Especial recoveries room, cuz I extended my damages and, like, what did I do that was that me? Or what happened? How, like, I'm flooded with this worry that I did something wrong and and as the story came out, because Okay, well, that wasn't my fault. And but as stories came out, it's really interesting, because my, my wife said, so she was amazing. And she immediately was, you know, checking on everybody making sure everyone could speak heard voices. And yet she when she turned to me, she saw me hanging lifeless from from my seatbelt. Because I was unconscious. But that's not what went through her head, as you can imagine. Yeah. And in fact, when they radioed in they said, there was one debt and five survivors, but each is Yeah. So why shouldn't go to this is people wrapped up in the, in the trauma of this, but so the thing was, she says, So then she starts released, she released her seatbelt. And then she released the daughter that was between us. And then she released my seatbelt, and I landed on top of my daughter. And so they had trouble getting her out. And I couldn't do anything. I was unconscious. But the weird thing was that they said, I told them I couldn't move. Wow. And I'm like, no, no, I didn't. I was that wasn't I was unconscious. There's no way I did that. Because what that triggered me and it took me months, if not more than a year to grapple with this. That felt awful. Like I felt like if I was telling them I couldn't move, that means I was conscious. And I'm laying on top of my daughter who's got a broken face and broken arm and and she can't get out because I'm laying on top of her and won't move. How can I? How can I claim innocence when apparently we do this? Ya know, I still struggle with it a bit. But the psychiatrists or psychologists I've been working with say, we can do that when we are unconscious, we can actually communicate with each other. Which is again, one of the bizarre human things. Yeah, so they've they've tried to reassure me that I was unconscious, and yet I was letting them know that I couldn't help or do anything. Yeah, just very hard. But the the guilt of that weighed on me for a few years trying to process that At and, and grapple with that.Ian Hawkins:
I can can't imagine what that would be like. But I can imagine that the the grappling part, I'm always the believer that will it's, it's there for a reason. So maybe there was a reason for your daughter safety that you were on her foot for who knows why, right? Like, either the amazing Cuban equipment like maybe at the unconscious level that said, I can't move was also like, she needed to be stabilized for a time, we just don't know, right? But it's like, I just I love to come to a realisation or a thought that will. Maybe that's just what was meant to happen, for whatever reason, and we don't always find out at the time. How did you deal with the guilt? Because what I know, you said, I'm not sure if we have the trauma or not, I would this is great to talk about it. Because this this concept of guilt is something that really people struggle with, and sometimes for a long time. Like, I've had that conversation. So when my dad passed, we had to make the decision that okay, there's nothing they can do, which they said to us, but you still have to make the decision. But you're still grappling with that, well, what if there was like, should we have actually done this and that, and, and it's like, you still need to be able to work through it. So So what was the process that you were taken through and what really worked and helped you to move past that guilt?Kevin Williams:
Two things. One is defining words, and feelings and emotions and circumstances. Definitions are important to me. And I think they're very helpful in general. The other thing was my psychologist walking me through and encouraging me to accept this idea that yes, I was unconscious. And yes, my mind was able to communicate. So that truth, I hold on to. Yep. The other thing is, recognizing what guilt is and what condemnation is. And grief, and sorrows and things so guilt we think of guilt as a as a feeling. I, I think of guilt as a reality. So if I am speeding on the highway, I got busted. Was I guilty? Yeah. I did it. I'm guilty of doing it. Do I feel like some immoral whatever. Now if I was doing 10 over or something like, okay, busted? Yeah, I'm guilty of that. So that's factual. I was guilty how I feel about that. And getting busted, but I might be angry, or I might be dammit, why did you do that? You shouldn't have done that. That was stupid. Now you've wasted time and money and blah, blah. Those feelings and stories that I tell myself are different. So in terms of, you know, the specifics, where I was, kind of I had fallen on top of my daughter. I don't even know if guilty applies. But yes, I was. I was incapacitated. And on top of her, which which kept it made it difficult to get her out. That's a reality. Did I have any blame? Was there any blame on me in that? No. Was there anything I could have done about it? No. Do I feel? I feel I felt bad for her that she had to deal with that. But I spoke with her and and at one point about it. I said I just like I feel like Do you remember that? Does that bother you in any way? Or how are you? How are you? She said she doesn't even specifically remember that. And certainly had no feelings about it towards me in terms of being upset with me or anything, which helped as well. So having an open and honest conversation about that helped me as well. And then it was just really a matter of repeating these things and learning to to say okay, well what my psychologist is telling me, I trust it to be true. So I'm going to hold on to that. And it's gonna keep repeating that truth. I was unconscious. It doesn't seem to make sense. But and so and she wasn't hurt by it emotionally. So that's okay. Was there anything I could do? Absolutely not. I was completely in the clear of that any any blame or, or guilt? Really, I suppose. So, walk that. That's something that really helps me. Process those kinds of difficult emotions and circumstances, for sure being very clear on on the world. As I'm using and how I name, what I'm going through and what I'm doing about it can be very helpful for sure.Ian Hawkins:
Yeah, I love that. And the bit that stands out for me is the importance of having that place to externally process, what's going on so that they can give you clarity on exactly what the circumstances are, instead of being caught in that loop of creating all this story and meaning that's not actually theKevin Williams:
Oh, yeah. I mean, my wife and I have talked a lot. And we do this with our kids storytelling. Oh, man. That's, that's, I can say it's the death of us all. But it's also the life of us all. Here. We're good at it. Yeah, no, I mean, the storytelling can absolutely ruin us. But on the other hand, that storytelling is also what we use to build a better future.Ian Hawkins:
Yeah. It also saves us like, which is, which is why I love these conversations, because I know someone listening to this right now will just be like, oh, man, I'm so thankful I heard this message.Kevin Williams:
Yeah, well, I hope so. Because, I mean, it's other people's stories that have helped me. And so, you know, and honestly, I used to, I used to kind of, what's the word, a critic, I was critical of people who would always tell their tell their story and, and go through their, their, their story, whatever their story was, and, like, Okay, I mean, whatever. Just because you went through something doesn't mean you have to tell everybody about it. And then I realized, well, but I really want to tell people about this, and I want to change things. And I experienced, we experienced things with our legal system and our insurance system and the police systems. These are messed up, man, there's a lot of stuff that needs to be fixed here. And I'm like, I want to get involved when we're through that I want to get involved in fixing this stuff. You know, like the Mothers Against Drunk Driving. And I don't know if that's your worldwide thing now. But there was a movement in North America, sometime back and because some woman lost her child, she gets all up in arms, and they start creating this movement, which is fantastic. To stop or reduce, at least change the social narrative. On your driving drunk. Yeah. So yeah, so me telling my story. Now, I see that very differently. I know, look, not everybody's gonna hear my story and go, Oh, wow, some are gonna like, they won't relate. Whether it's because of the way I look, or it's because of the circumstances of my story, I don't know. But for those that do relate, here it is. And I really, really want people to benefit from that and learn from it. So that's why I like to share inappropriate contexts.Ian Hawkins:
Yeah, it's good a lot that, thankfully, in this medium, most people won't be good to see you. So they're not making pre judgement.
You brought it up? No, but it's like, it's like, we do tend to have that lens of oh, that sounds like this sort of person. And how many times have we seen someone that we've been listening to you on your own, and I was not expecting that at all. And it's such a great reminder to just like that, it just, it just is what it is. The most powerful part of that is what you said about the storytelling. And to me, it's like, we get our own healing through telling our story from listening, which I'm sure you've experienced when you've been interviewing people on your pod, as well as the audience as well. Like, it's whether whether they've been through a car accident, or they've been through any sort of grief, or they've had those moments of grief. It's the the being able to vocalize or externally processed in another way by journaling or something, just to get that clarity in your head so that you don't have to waste any more time, energy or money on things that can be moved on from.Kevin Williams:
Yeah, and those are some interesting points, too, because I think all of what you just said has been a part of my journey. So writing, there are times I don't do it consistently. But there are times where I journal and I write stuff, and I just write whatever and there and the telling of the story. So I've given live talks, keynote speeches, talking about different things in this journey and all of it helps with the processing and clarifying and even like, as I said earlier, like just talking with you, I'm like, Oh, wow, stuffs coming together, just as I'm telling you like now. So those are all all part of it. The other thing that I was thinking about is that when in terms of grief specifically, I think it's something I'm glad you're doing this because I think it's something that we underestimate like I did. And, and there's a lot of little griefs in life that we overlook. And that's, that's some of what I think built up in my life that kind of brought in maybe that that depressive episode, but you know, I, I grieve over the little things that my kids haven't been able to do during the last few years, I grieve over my example. Because of the stress and the trauma and all the things I'm learning about myself in life, I haven't always been the dad. A lot of times, I'm not the dad that I wished I was, or that I thought I might be or, and so I have to I try to grieve that and go okay, yeah, I don't, I'm not happy about that. And that's a that's a lost dream, I guess, if you will, or a lost aspiration that that didn't come about and, and just kind of go and walk through that again. Okay. So what about that, you know, it's walk through a similar process that I described before, what is it that I'm really feeling? And what is the actual loss? And what can I do about it? And was it my fault? Am I guilty? And my, you know, do I deserve to be condemned? What are the so even though that's, some of it's very little stuff? I try not to let little things go. But I also try not to make them big things. Okay. Yeah. That's that's said. And you've kind of worked through and move on.Ian Hawkins:
Yeah, you raise a great point, because I'm a big believer, as a lot of what I talk about is those smaller moments of grief, that can have the biggest impact, that the biggest stuff, we tend to get support, we tend to talk about it, we tend to go through a journey around it, but the smaller things like every time we grow, there's a mini death, and there's a mini grieving process. And, and it's important for us to process because those little things, as they add up, like you said, Daelim turn to big things. Well, if you leave all the little things unresolved, then we it's like a bank, right? It gets to a point, and then there's a there's an explosion, because it can't take any more than more room for any more of it. So that's, you've covered sort of both angles there around that, you still need to go through the process, whether it's the really intense, like you described, or the smaller things.Kevin Williams:
Yeah. And, and recognizing that is, can be helpful with other people, for example. I know it's a generalization that, you know, women tend to, with our kids as they grow up, they tend to, they want them to stay young and cute. And they whether they they effectively grieve it or not, they there's this loss, they feel I think as as kids grow up, and so they're always sad that they're not in this stage anymore. And that there's whereas I've always been, well, this is cool. Now we can do this that we couldn't do before. Now we can do this that we couldn't do before. Yeah. And I mean, sometimes I look back and go, oh yeah, those days when they just in my arms and fell asleep on my chest and life was simple and fun and cute. But I recognizing that for my wife, instead of just going okay, whatever, you're just being a woman, which is deeply insulting and rude. I would, I can go Okay, so for her, there's a there's a sense of loss in that. And so it would be better if I would walk in or at least be available to her and that and kind of go yeah, you miss those days and, and how can we walk walk you through that and help you to be okay with that loss and, and celebrate what is now that that perspective just can really change the way that relationship which for me is a dad is a huge thing as well, right? I mean, my relationship with my wife is a huge part of parenting, my kids see and so again, talk about grief and loss, this collision. I mean, my wife's brain injury and PTSD just kind of really turned things around. And so now their mother is like, kind of a different person and you know, we lost who she was and now we're getting to know who she is and and walking through the healing with her as we go through our own healing. So those those losses as well. There's just so much but yeah, just all the little little griefs and the journeys that that we, we talk about, and I try to make time and and ask the kids things and I don't want to bring it up and make it an issue but try to be I don't know, sometimes there are things that I haven't brought up to the kids. Like for years, I didn't talk about the fact that what might be going on in the back of their minds was, holy crap, we might have lost our parents, we might have been orphans. I didn't mention that. That was one of the things that went through my head earlier on, but like, I'm not gonna bring that on. An adventure. I'm like, When can I bring that up? Is that an issue for you? You're struggling right now. And it's a bit of a it's a bit of a tightrope to walk. But yeah, just recognizing the griefs BIG and LITTLE, and helping each other to process that. It's just, it really does change a lot of things in life, I think.Ian Hawkins:
Yeah, absolutely. I think just the fact that you've opened the conversation is great, because I know if I kept going down the trajectory, I was going as a parent, then that this wouldn't have been the case, I would have been continuing with the control and the, and the fixing, and all those different things. And it's slightly opposite of what they want and the opposite of what they need. So it's a massive service to them. The brain injury, it's funny, I was working with a well, I have with a lady for the last 12 months, or probably more like 18 months, and she had had a significant brain injury from an accident. And we've worked through a lot of the different stuff around at the impacts and the behaviors. And we're not obviously like you said, you're not going to get back to how it was. But the lens, I always try and come to it is like your body's finding a way to around it. And it's like an upgrade, right? Like there are different things that you're going to come into your awareness that that maybe never would have if you hadn't been through this and yeah, and and it's like, well, you could look at it any way you want. But why would you not look for the best of it, because it is what it is you can't go back and change it. So let's let's find a way to make it better. So I imagined, are you on your journey? That would have been part of how you've looked at all of us? I will how can we make the best of this?Kevin Williams:
Yeah, for sure. And we did early on? That's my wife said, Oh, how did she put it something like? This was such it. I'm paraphrasing, I guess. But this is such a huge thing. That God must have something really amazing in store for us. Because you're learning from it. But you know, what you're saying there I think is is another layer of you know, just recognize that, yes, we're, we're looking for the positive? And what can we gain out of it? And what's the good and the learning and so on. But I recognize that I couldn't fully embrace the good and the learning without also grieving the loss. Yeah, and letting that go and go, Okay, this is real. I've lost this. And be okay with that. And, and so men celebrate the new and the good. Yep.Ian Hawkins:
You talked before about the different ways that you've been expressive and out different times that that hasn't been as maybe unrestricted as in the past. And you'd be also mentioned before we jumped on a moment when, when you were quite young, a speech contest that didn't go well. Like is that is that a bit of a pattern for you around like, well, there's, there's a, there's an inner part of us, like you said, now you just can't wait to speak on a stage. Is there an inner part of you that's written a bit of a roller coaster around your self expression?Kevin Williams:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, if I look back over my life, it's, it has been, let's say, when I was quite young, like, for I think it was for the age of 10. Yeah, it was a very happy go lucky, creative, fun loving, you know, if it's having fun going on, let me enjoy it. And something, something triggered a change around age of 10. I used to get really excited about things. And then when it didn't happen, I was just devastated. Or if it didn't happen, I was devastated. And I didn't like that it hurt too much. And so I decided I wasn't going to get excited about anything until it happened. And what I did, in that process was shut down my emotions, you can't have only some. For me, I found it just muted everything. And so for years after that, I went through this muted state, I lived in my head, very analytical, judgmental, logically creative, but I, you know, and then went through, you know, a phase where I began to open up again. And when I, as I say was a few years back when I, before my wife started taking some medication on a doctor's suggestion, and I was like, wow, this is amazing. And then, soon after we got married with the child, and the move and job, everything got overwhelming, and everything jumped to the surface, and I went depressed. And so then I'm struggling to come back again. And I don't think I fully got back to really expressing myself and till kind of the last few years where where I've been exploring that from a, from a public speaking, perspective. And wanting to get all this stuff out. I got stuff in me that I want to share. And I'm not I'm not arrogant about I don't think that everybody wants to hear what I have to say. But it's almost like, I don't care. I just want to get it out. I just want to say it. And if you like it, you like it. Great. If you don't, you don't? Okay, that's fine. I mean, I do care, because as I said earlier, like actually, I know people will relate to me. And that's been one of the key things in in expression is recognizing, you know, pick on someone like Tony Robbins, not everybody gets it. I mean, not everybody wants to listen to him. Yeah, I mean, he reaches millions of people. But it that doesn't mean that everybody needs to go to him. And so, you know, there's some people that need my voice, my story. And that's cool, then I want to share that. Yeah.Ian Hawkins:
And I think, I think I know that's true for every single person, like, whether you stand on a stage or whether you're just doing it in your close circle is that there's, there's a part of your story that that people don't need to experience and people do need to hear and do need to have told and they and they will get value from it. And, and it's the, you know, like you said, I cover exact words used, but it is good to get validated for the story you're telling, because it's a creative expression. And we enjoy significance from our creative expression. So our story is no different than it does it feels good to know that you've impacted someone.Kevin Williams:
Yeah. And a lot of it to me, also to two sides of this, that that are developing or have been developing for me, I guess his one is what we're just saying about, you know, it's valuable to other people, but there's also just social media. Interestingly enough, there's a lot of stuff I really don't like about it. But but it's, it's shown me that weird people are being accepted. Yeah. And I mean, it sounds judgmental, but, I mean, there are people I think what you're doing is weird, or your voice is strange, or your behavior is odd. And yet, there are people gravitating towards you and, and enjoying what you're sharing and doing. And, and that's encouraged me to say, You know what, there are people who will appreciate me for who I am. And that's a lot of what I've struggled with, right? It's that self image about who I am or who I'm supposed to be. Who is it safe for me to be? And so it's beginning to be okay with being who I am. And, and learning to accept that there are people who will celebrate that and there are people who will just think I'm a bit odd. And that's gonna happen no matter what. Okay, when I had short back and sides hair, it was some people liked it. Some people maybe thought I didn't, you know, my sisters like that they hate my long hair and my beard. Oh, well, to air for you. I don't want my hair to make you happy. I mean, I like you. You're my sisters. We get along generally but but that's part of it the saying okay. Let letting go of, of the self images and the stories around that. Back to storytelling, right and just accepting the truth of who I am writing my own story and is one of my Good friends talks about, you know, your this is your life as a movie make yourself the lead character. Why are you playing? Like some supporting role in your own story?Ian Hawkins:
Yeah. I love that. We're always in some way. And I like to think that's the that's the weirdness where we create the greatest connections. Right. So thank you for sharing your weirdness today, I appreciate it. You mentioned, you know, that childhood, you know, shutting down a part of your emotions, and that when there was an experience for me as well, and I can, I can clearly remember that I remember, I'm not going to fight this anymore. Like, for siblings, like, for lots of fighting. And whenever I felt like I was unfairly blamed, I just decided, well, don't argue just just whatever comes to come to mind, I shut down so much. And I would, I would encourage everyone listening to explore, where they've shut down at some point in their life. Because when you can rediscover that, and when you can tap back into that thing that you've been suppressing. That's where we get so much learning. That's where we we awaken this part of us that is capable of so much more. So I really thank you for sharing that part. Kevin, because it's it's a really powerful message and as a dad, and your and your got a podcast, legendary dad's giving more dads permission to let their children explore that space as well. Firstly, rather than having to wait like I did for 30 something years before I returned to that space, I think it's such a gift.Kevin Williams:
Yeah, yeah. And just learning to celebrate. Even celebrating the part that so many people will mock and laugh I like women, women tease man, I mean, all my life, I've heard you know, women generally will laugh at men as Oh, many do these things, and dad jokes and whatever. And women often mock in men, the very things that they actually value and, and so not not turning it into a man woman thing necessarily, but just recognizing that. Yeah, just your your weirdness is your superpower. I think, as you described it a moment ago was was beautiful, about, you know, that piece that you've had hidden, and just learning to let that out and finding a way to be safe or feel secure in that and safe in that and knowing that Come What May is a good thing. If it's if you're being true to who you are. That's a good thing and a powerful thing. And as dads. We have huge influence on our kids. And we can't we we can't make ourselves to be the best dad. Except by being our our best selves. Yeah, I mean, my parenting is so different from yours. I know that even though we've never even talked about our parenting, but yeah, just the way we do it, it's gonna be so different. But if I'm being the more I'm being authentic and true to myself, and showing my kids, the real me, the more they're going to benefit from that. I have what it takes to be the best dad, for my kids. Give out permission, what matters. And youIan Hawkins:
give them permission to be the truest version of them, because they take so much more from our behavior than they do from the words, right?Kevin Williams:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.Ian Hawkins:
You said, I just wanted to touch on this briefly. You said there. I don't want to make this a man and woman thing. It's like, there are differences. And there are different roles. And yes, there are some areas and some some particular families where that's not the case. But But in general, this is the way it's been for millennia. And it's okay for us to talk about that. And it's okay for us to talk about the different patterns. I think people get too offended by I can't say this, because it might offend this, like, no, no, this is like people have experienced this. Like, let's actually make it normal to talk about it and make it okay, so I thank you for, for sharing that. And I think it's an area that that's a good, good thing to explore. Definitely.Kevin Williams:
Oh, for sure. No, and I wasn't trying to hide that. You know, I do think that men and women are different, and I think it's good and important. And I just, yeah, I wasn't sure we wanted to go down that rabbit hole of, of discussion. But it's, yeah, it's important. And that's, I mean, it's different for everybody in some regards, but, you know, my wife and I are very different and it's been in a lot of ways it was difficult for us there has been difficult for us to learn to bring our differences together into to work them in as strengths in our parenting and in our relationship, but yeah, That's, it is a big thing. And that's something that I like to talk about with men too. Just recognizing importance. I've been really listening to a lot of Jordan Peterson lately and appreciate his perspective on a lot of stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And so many others.Ian Hawkins:
Yes. And of course, he offends a lot of people, but there's also so much value to what he talks about, right? Because, like he said, we have a room full of men, and they all cry, because for the first time, it's felt okay to be who they just naturally are. It's like, how on earth is that a bad thing? He's just trying to bring the people's a different interpretation, a way of looking at things than then what maybe certain other areas want to push?Kevin Williams:
Yeah. And that's, and he's on a very large platform and facing some really,
in some cases, very big issues. And that's, that's fine. But, you know, part of that, for me, has been,
you know, recognizing, wanting to challenge and, and kind of feeling like, you know, if you're not, if you're not taking anybody off, you're probably not seeing much, tremendous value. And I, I don't want to pick a fight for the sake of a fight. But yeah, I've always, I've always held back and hidden myself so that I don't offend, you know, I can't piece. It's like, No, you know, what, I'm not going to try to offend anybody. And I had to learn, I still have to learn sometimes to say things. Try to say, in a way, that's the least offensive, I don't want to offend unnecessarily, because you can say the same thing for different ways and helpful, and some of them are just going to create a fight. So yeah, you know, I want to present but that's, and that's also what comes with legendary dads, I'm saying, You know what, let's, let's raise the bar, let's let's aim high, let's go for legend. Let's go for something big. And let's learn to fight for that for our families and for who we are as, as dads and as men and fight for our families. And because so many of us, myself, certainly raised with this idea that it's not okay to fight. And any kind of aggression, arguing, standing up kind of felt like fighting, and that was no good. Whereas now I'm saying, you know, what, Oh, dammit, I'm fighting for my family. And in our healing process, fighting with the doctors or the we didn't have to fight with our lawyers, they were really good. But fighting with the insurance company, and you know, whatever it is learning to really be clear about who I am, what I stand for, and where I'm going. And teaching my family to do that to get clear on. Who are we where are we going? Why are we doing this?Ian Hawkins:
Yes. Love that.Kevin Williams:
Yeah, it just brings so much more excitement. And I think, I don't know if you want to go into this philosophical side of things. But honestly, when I look at the world around me, and I talk about the things I don't like in Facebook, sorry, not Facebook, specifically social media. People are picking fights left, right and center. They're drawing lines, and they're picking fights over the dumbest, most trivial stuff. And I look at that, and I think you know what, I bet it's because they don't have any clear purpose and meaning in their life. So they're just grabbing anything to feel like I I'm taking this stand, I'm on this side. Okay. But pick something worth fighting for?Ian Hawkins:
Well, yeah. And, and what better to fight for their own stuff. And we go back to Jordan Peterson, he was in Australia, and he was on one of our programs in his q&a. And he was talking about like, the, like, you know, bringing more green to the world and the, you know, climate change, and all this sort of stuff. And he talked about he said, from his experience, people who are most passionate about causes like that. It's usually because they haven't got their own house in order. And he said, he will encourage people to do that. First. If you if you have spent time and energy getting your own house in order. And you're in a place where when you're feeling like you're heading in the right direction, then by all means, but if it's just a distraction from doing the work on you of improving you, then it's not going to have the impact that you want to have anyway, because it's coming from the wrong place.Kevin Williams:
Yeah, that's a beautiful point, because that's a lot of what I've been doing over the last few years, right, getting my own house in order personally, like who am I, who's Kevin Williams, as well as up to A 55 year old man who is this guy, you know, I remember what I was like as a kid and at different stages growing up who am I now today? And, and then my family and this through this healing, trauma, healing of the trauma and everything. It's like, okay, who's who am I, as a leader in my family and as a father, and how am I working that and what do I need to do and, and, and then I was just thinking about, you know, the whole thing of grief and how actually, in a way, that's been one of the major motivators for me to step up and start talking and sharing is that maybe not enough, it's grief, but the sorrow and the pain I feel for so many men and women who are struggling and and as I've said, in some of my in my bio is like, a cry for the women and the children who are struggling, because the men in their lives just don't get it, they don't know that they actually have what it takes to be the man, their wife needs to be the dad that their children need. I so desperately want to help these guys. Because I've struggled with that, and I get it, and I and I've seen what I've done to my wife, the pain I've caused her. And the struggle to some degree that my kids, you know, things they've missed out on. Because of the times when I was I just stepped back, right? I went into I went into freeze mode. Because I was overwhelmed instead of stepping up and doing something about it. So I just so much want to help dads, and men and people in general, really, is to recognize that they can do it, there's a way forward. And it can be hell. I mean, when we were during the last few years, there were days, there were years, where I would I go to bed I've just done, I got nothing. It's I have never, ever felt the level of fatigue, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual fatigue, it was just done. I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. I don't even know if I'm gonna go to bed tomorrow. I'm just going to sleep because I'm done. And, you know, wake up in the morning, and just, I don't know what. Okay, I'll get dressed. And I'll go see, maybe, maybe I'll manage to get the kids to school, maybe not. Maybe we'll eat breakfast, and maybe not, I don't know, but I'll get out of bed, I'll get dressed. And I'll walk downstairs and see what's next. And it's, it's incredible. It's absolutely astonishing what we can do. When we are focused on other people. I didn't keep going for myself, I kept going for my wife and kids, I just couldn't let them down as long as I until I had given absolutely everything I could possibly give, I was not going to stop trying. I mean, there were days where I just said, Guys, there's food in the fridge, get it if you want it. But I was still there. I'm still trying. And it was it was maybe a day that I would just kind of go, I just have to go and sleep because that's all I can do. But they knew that I was still there. And I kept going and was always present and moving forward as best I could. It. I hope nobody else has to go through that. But I want I want to help guys realize that. There's a way you have what it takes, and you're capable of so much more than you realize. If you're willing to just do it for them, we will do so much more for other people than we would ever do for ourselves. And so I have to look after myself. And I'm getting better and better at that. Finding the things that energize and give me joy, so that I have more to give to my family. But in the worst moments, it was it was entirely for them. I just, I couldn't let them down. I had to give everything and until I had given my last drop of blood. I wasn't going to stop. And I was amazed at how much blood I had in me. Not literally but I mean, just in terms of emotional mental energetic energy. Yeah, yeah.Ian Hawkins:
My honor you and celebrate you for for sharing this message because it is much needed for men. And the other thing I want to touch on is that that's your Y, right? We all need to know what our Y is. And if it's your kids and your wife and your broader family, great. If it's not find something that is find something that's outside of you, that makes it all worth it, because that's what that's what will drive you on on the tough days. It'll, it'll get you up on the tough days of inspire you to do things and like you described, you never want anyone else to go through what you went through. And to me that's where we find purpose, right? That thing that we've been through that we don't want anyone else to goes through. Man, there's so much in that. Like, it feels amazing to help people and shortcut their life so that they don't have to go through that. So again, I celebrate what you're bringing to the world, Kevin, it's amazing. Thank you. Can I ask just one more question? If we've got time? I'm curious about you mentioned the whole left side of your body was broken? How much of that is still impacting you? And how did you? How did you cope with that, that whole the physical recoveryKevin Williams:
actually, there's, we can go for another half hour on that. There. Yeah, I mean, literally, my left orbital bone blow, my eye was cracked. My, my left elbow was dislocated left. On Alma or radius, I forget which of the forearm Bones was broken into three pieces. My cracked ribs, lung collapsed, cracked sternum, most of my leg was actually okay. And then my foot was mangled. X ray looks like some kind of Halloween prop. So even when I was in a wheelchair, I only had my right side to work with, I kept going around in circles. Until I figured that out, but that is, like 99% healed, my foot still gives me some issue. But I can walk and run, I just have, I still have some pain from it. And the one toe didn't heal straight. So it's pushing over, but not a big deal as far as that goes. But I mean, it, it was an issue. You know, I'm physically I'm optimistic. And so when I was stuck in a wheelchair, I didn't think I was going to be stuck there forever, I expected my bones to heal and move it over this and we'll get through it. And we'll we'll be better. And, and sure enough, we're getting there. So, but it was a, it was an interesting challenge in the house healing from the trauma. Because initially, my wife was actually in pretty good shape. But I was physically incapacitated, stuck in a hospital bed in our house. And then after a bit, I was able to get in the wheelchair and, and sort of do move around, but not really do anything. This struggle of that was was significant of hearing my wife struggling to work with the kids, and get dinners on the table, even though people were bringing dinners or one wrist was broken. So she couldn't even pick up the casserole to put on the table. And just being stuck in the bed or in the wheelchair and not being able to help. I mean, the tears that I cried in those days could have filled the swimming pool, it was just the frustration of that physical incapacity to get up and do something. So I had to adjust. And it's one of the things I've talked about before too, is how, recognizing that I couldn't do what I normally naturally wanted to do physically. So I had to shift and that's okay, Kids, come here, come to me, get on the bed with me, we'll have fun with this bed and with you know, folds up and down here and they painted my toenails and things. So yeah, he was shifting to do what I could in the time, and there was a shift after a few months where I was becoming a little more mobile. But my wife, her brain injury and PTSD started to catch up to her. And so she began to fall away and, and because of those injuries, and so then I had to start to step up again. And so, you know, losing her through that process. And it took me a while, you know, at first it's like, you know, Hey, okay, I got to do this. So I'll step up and do it. And this is all good. And then I realized I was starting to resent her. And interesting and at some points even resenting my kids for what they were not doing and and after a while, I thought, well wait a minute. I mean, I wanted to help out, like, you know, do a can are going to support everybody. But again, grief and the loss of her and her support and her role in the family and I hadn't it took me awhile to realize I hadn't processed that really, I just kind of assumed accepted it. Okay, well gotta do this. And then after a while, I'm like, dammit, this is not who I want it to be. This is not the kind of data and it's not the relationship I wanted what the heck and so then yeah, with help from others. I Oh, and just my own reflective processes. Kind of going, Oh, okay, this is a loss, this is something that's changed. I don't get what I had, I don't get what I wanted to have, I have something else. And I need to figure out how to embrace that. And let go of the the ideals and the dreams and the hopes and the reality even that we had grieve that loss, cry about it, fight and kick and scream in my, in my bed over it, whatever it takes to journal about it, and then begin to embrace who I am. And it's still like that our life is not yet the way we hope it will become. You know, I'm doing a lot of stuff that it's like, this isn't the dad and husband and man that I wanted to be this isn't the life that I wanted. And so to some extent, I'm still kind of going, okay. But I can, and I have a wife who loves me, and I have kids who love me, and we're good, and we're learning and growing. And who knows, when all this who knows when we're done. And we're at the new reality for you know, from now on and but I again, for the sake of while myself and kids, I'm continually going, this is where we are now. And it's an evolving process, right? My wife is healing. The kids are healing, I'm healing. So we're changing. We keep shifting a little bit, you know, this month, things are feeling a little different. Like, oh, wait a minute. That wasn't happening last month. It's happening now. So it's like, okay, so I don't have to do you know, all the dinners, sometimes other people doing dinner last night? So let's celebrate that when it happens instead of just being upset about it. It's a Yeah, it's an it's a moving target. And so it's interesting, the process of letting go of the reality even the reality is that I don't like sometimes letting go of them bit by bit is actually difficult, because it's like, oh, I can't say okay, oh, I bet has changed now. Now you can take that over. Excuse me? No, it's like, well, today, it's changed. And tomorrow, it might not be. So it's, it says dance back and forth. But isn't that what it's like with our kids anyway, when we're raising kids as they're growing, and they're constantly changing, and so Oh, he used to eat this all the time. Now you don't need it. You used to like playing this game. And now you don't like playing? Well, you didn't like that. Now you do. So that ability to evolve? Recognize what you're letting go of if there's a sense of loss in that. Absolutely. Recognize that. process it and and then celebrate the new that's coming out of that. Yeah. It's a challenge.Ian Hawkins:
Yeah. The two things I took out of that is that we continue even even know when we're not where we want to be. Will Will we ever because there's always something else. So continuing to move forward. And then you said just being appreciative for what is. And I again, I think that's such a powerful point, because that allows us to appreciation, you think of the word, it's like it's increase. And by pausing and going, Okay, well, yes, not if he's perfect, but I'm so happy for this. I'm so appreciative for that, that just allows us to continue to move forward in such a more positive vein. So thank you for sharing those points. Kevin, I feel like we could probably talk all day. So we might save that for another conversation. I want to thank you again, I appreciate all that you've shared. It's been massive. I appreciate you. Where can people find you? Where can people find the podcast and any other pages or links that you've got?Kevin Williams:
Thanks. The the podcast is available on all the platforms, but I would say the probably the central thing would be to go to our website, Kevin will speak.com wi ll.
Kevin will speak.com It's, I mean, there you see the links to social media. You can find a way they brought the broadcast the podcast
episodes are on that site as well. And had Kevin will speak of course, there's also coaching tab where you can sign up for an opportunity to speak with me, complimentary session. So all of that is kind of the central place there at Kevin wheel. speak.com.Ian Hawkins:
Excellent. Thank you. And thank you for being such a voice of wisdom today. I thank you and I really appreciate talking. Welcome.
I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief, let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform