Thriving As A Father with Darren Lewis

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back, you've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it, and what to do next. Before we start by one request, if any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the Ian Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this word, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

One of the inspirations for this podcast came from a conversation with a good mate of mine. And we were sitting around quite regularly at that point, catching up and just talking about all things, life and growth and philosophical conversations and making changes and the amount of times we got to the end of that conversation. And we would say, man, we should record we should record that there was so much wisdom, there was so much gold in that conversation. Well, this chat with Darren Lewis today was exactly like that. As he said to me, after we finished recording, he probably wasn't in the best time in terms of all the different things he had on, he didn't have time to prepare or do much research about who I who I am and what I do. So it was very much just a conversation between two mates, although we'd never met before talking about all things for him specifically around fathering his own journey of being a son, and also then a father, and everything he learned through that. Now, if you're a man, a dad, or a woman and a wife, or someone who's got kids with another man, then there's going to be so much for you in this so much wisdom, so much gold, to be able to take away with you and learn from and also to, as he said, through the conversation, it's not your fault, whatever you're going through, it's not your fault. It's not the fault. It's not no one's fault, what they've experienced, but we can absolutely take responsibility and make really positive changes. One of my favorites because there was so much that I related to in my own journey. Enjoy this chat with Darren Lewis.

Hi, all and welcome. This week's guest Darren Lewis. Darren, how are you?

Unknown Speaker 2:58

I'm great. Thank you.

Ian Hawkins 3:01

Great to chat. Now. Your brand, fathering adventures. I love it. I've got a feeling at some point. I may have actually booked in to do one of your events, but then had something come up that stopped us. Okay. Tell us a little bit about that. The the experience that fathers get through your business, and then we can dig deeper into the story of where that was born and the passion you have for it? Sure.

Unknown Speaker 3:36

Yeah. Well. You know, there's a common saying, right, that we were not given a handbook to being fathers to being family and a man's greatest fear is failure. And and so, where does a man feel strongest? Where does a man feel most like a man? It's it work? And okay, why is that the case? Because he's received training and instruction in the workplace, or he's done a trade or he's done a university degree or whatever it may be. And so he feels powerful. He feels like a man in those places. You put that same man in a home with a woman with children. And quite often it feels like he's stumbling and tripping and kind of, you know, making a meal of things and just not just blowing it, you know, not. And so really, what? When I started following adventures, I wanted to be able to help experientially equip men and empower men to be great dads, and, and I didn't want to write a book. And I haven't, and I didn't want to just go and do a bunch of workshops and seminars and things like that. I wanted to do it experientially because men learn best experientially and so So, we we teach we impart everything that a dad needs to know about his son or his daughter between the ages of seven and 13 and 13 years and over. And then we give them a practical application that they now go and get to apply that and experience the fruit of that. And that set within the backdrop of a lot of fun, everything we do has to involve fun, because fun is extremely underrated, and adventure. And so the greatest adventure to be completely honest with you is the greatest adventure is, is, is building that connection between yourself and your son or your daughter. That's the real adventure. But of course, we utilize outdoor adventures, as well. So and it depends on ages, obviously, we introduce the outdoor adventure theme, a lot more gentler when the kids are younger. And to get help get the mums on side as well, like we're not going to break their kids. But as as the kids get older, and that's a part of their journey into becoming adults is really the the adventures and Papa little as well. You know, what would rafting you know, snorkeling or scuba diving on the Great Barrier Reef, you know, jet skiing, you know, all of these incredibly wonderful things. And of course, there's great memories that have constructed in and around all of that, that we'll have for our lifetimes and, and so, but the heart of it, it's it's to, to leave fathers and their sons and daughters for that older age group. Knowing who they are, and, and knowing how to live well. So that's probably the the gist of it a snapshot of, of, of what we offer families.

Ian Hawkins 6:54

Fantastic. And something that really resonated for me was that what you said there was like, we we don't necessarily get shown what to do, we don't necessarily know what we do. And before we jumped on here, record, you said like you worked out when you had kids, you didn't really know what you're doing. I think most parents have faced that at some point where they go, like, they're letting me take this thing home, like, what am I supposed to do now? And then it gets tricky. And from then on, right? Absolutely. It

Unknown Speaker 7:19

gets. I mean, my kids now are in there. Like my youngest is still 92 Is 20 in July, but my eldest is like 10 to 29. And in June, and you know, the other two in between and, and in the, the and we're empty nesters, you know, but the stakes get higher. So it doesn't and you know, you're always going to be dad. And but I love you know, when you've really fostered that relationship when you really when they know that their dad is for them. They continue to pick up the phone and they continue to come over we have family dinner night, every Sunday night in our home. They all come from everywhere and wives and their kids, you know and granddad now and two grandkids and and we go over to my eldest son and his wife and a couple of kids play soccer every Thursday night for dinner. And you know, he's runs his own business. And he is not afraid to pick up the phone and say, Hey, Dad, facing a major decision here. What are your thoughts? And you know, and that's all built off of really focusing in on that relationship and making that relationship a priority. Because your relationship that you have with your kids is foundational to everything else. You know, quite often dads say, This is my best mate, you know, talking about his 10 year old kid, you know, and you're sort of thinking he doesn't need you to be his best mate right now he needs you to be his dad. But the good news is they don't is you'll always be their dad. But there comes a time you know 25 Maybe there abouts. When they do become you know, very good friends you know, they become your equal and and that's all about those seasons of fathering as as they grow and change your your fathering season needs to also change and you need to adapt and move with them. And and so I'm now I'm now able to say that I've got an incredible experience with all four of my kids. And are they perfect? No. Am I perfect? No. But we have a really great relationship with one another. In fact, we just come back from a family holiday in New Zealand, where they're all 10 of us all cramped up for 11 nights in like a four bedroom place. And and it was just amazing. Again, Were there moments where you know some some things were some buttons were paused. Yes, they were but but it was so good and so many good memories for still and it's just they're worth investing in a relationship with them. It's worth investing in

Ian Hawkins: 10:01

Awesome. To me, that's the greatest gift you get from investing in yourself is what it does for your relationships, and of course, your children. If we go back to your own journey, because when we have so much passion for something like this, which is clearly you do, there's a backstory, right? So tell us a little bit about why you were inspired to create this wonderful business and project that you've got going like what unfolded for you as a as a young fellow growing up?

Unknown Speaker: 10:36

Yeah. So now, here's the thing is I didn't know this at the time, I didn't know. It was it's only been as I've grown, as I've matured, that I began to realize the significance of this.

Ian Hawkins: 10:55

Okay, so. So let's, before we get there, then, was there a moment then? Or was there was there a passage of time where you started realizing these things? What what was what was unfolding for you then in life that had you reflect back on those times? And notice,

Unknown Speaker: 11:11

yeah, I became I, there were, there were a few years they were I became estranged from my dad. My dad, he did the best job that he could. He since passed away, he passed away. Gs 2004. So you know, that's 19 years ago, this August the 13th. And so he and he died from liver disease. And so you can kind of guess what his biggest struggle in life was in that was his addiction to alcohol. He would come home, he would say, my dad, now this is from a from a teenager perspective. My dad was a workaholic and an alcoholic. He was always at work, you know, I wake up early in the morning to get ready for school. He was all he's well and truly gone. He was on a job site somewhere he ran his own steel erection business. And so you know, used to build steel frames and and then of course, I'd come home from school with my brother come home from school and my dad would eventually come home when it was dark. So or every all light hours he was at work, absent gone and, and then when he would come home, he would come home and crack open at Kutner ber and take his first drink at whilst he's stacking the rest of the fridge where the other 23 stuff is, but he wouldn't need to put away or 23 Because by the time he was loading up, that is the final stubby emptying that carton, he had finished the first one and was cracking open the second one and go and sit in front of the television and continue to drink himself until they were all gone. And so he did that every night of his life. And so I guess that he in that there were moments I wouldn't, I wouldn't have described him as being a violent or an abusive dad, though there were times where there was definitely violence and definitely abuse. Most of the abuse was there was physical abuse, but most of the abuse was in and around verbal, mentally, emotionally. And I kind of just took it, you know, it's like, we see the we see the John Wayne characters, the Clint Eastwood characters on TV, they get an area that chest or they get shot, you know, and they just keep on moving forward, you know, that William Wallace is, you know, you're kind of you just move on, you know, and so that's what I did. That's how that's what I learned. And, but I also knew that I was alone. I didn't have anyone in my corner and met the love of my life. We got married, we had kids, and my in the before we had kids, my my dad would phone up and he would he would abuse me over the phone and and I would listen eventually probably hang it up. And then at some point, you know, my wife would answer and he would be you know, yelling abusive at her and she would hang up and,

Ian Hawkins: 14:24

and just random, random abuse or

Unknown Speaker: 14:27

it was after he had gotten home after drinking for a bit. Yeah, just anything just to lash out just to hurt someone. Yeah, just it. And so now to my great shame. I did nothing about that. And it wasn't until my eldest son was probably about to he started picking up the phone. And he'd be a hello granddad and I'm thinking I'm not going to have him. I'm not going to let this go into the next year. interations who actually went around to see him and it said that you need help. And until you get that help, we, you're not welcome, please don't phone, I really hope that you will get help. I've tried to help you in the past you've not been willing to, to find help and to be helped. And so that's where that's where it is. And then long story short, is I began to get some phone calls from others. So you knew me and knew my dad and, and stories of him turning yellow, and you know, seeing seeing him in a hospital or seeing him not be able to walk right, you know, walking with a walking frame, and you know, still a young man. I mean, my dad died when he was 53, just just before his 54th birthday, but he wasted away is going on bone. And so about four years before he died, I kind of I went to see him, because I was urged by one of my friends to go and see him. And I just sort of thought, you know, you do get one Dad, I don't want to have any regrets. I can't be responsible for his decisions. But I can be the best son that I can be. And so I actually cared for him the last few years of his life, which was full of, you know, more anguish at times. Yeah, it was certainly wasn't easy, but I'm, at least I can, I can hold my head high. And say, honestly, I have no regrets that I that I saw my dad through to his final years. And actually, there was this beautiful scene where he actually came, we actually went into a coma and we're told that he had 24 hours the doctors called my brother and I often said he's got 24 hours to 48 hours to live. He's in a coma, he won't be coming out of this coma. And the next day, I just got a piece the nurse's station phoned up and said Look, we've made a move to dad to his own room now you know what's coming up rules no longer apply to you, you can come and stay with him and and just be there till the very end. And so I kind of had a piece that we weren't going to lose in that night. And so I went up the next morning and makes preparations canceled a bunch of meetings and things are having the following week and and I went in and there was one meeting I couldn't get out of who's going to be a short one. So I thought I'd risk it and and so I took in a CD player for debt free just to have some music playing in the background whilst I wasn't there. And as I walked past my daddy was white, unshaven mouth wide open, you know, in a coma. But you know, we hear stories right of of Anna and it's a core belief of mine that though you know, your body may be unconscious, your spirits, very conscious still, you know, stories of, you know, I hate you. I was in a coma. But I knew who was in the room. And so as I walked past my dad and saw him, and he was gravely ill, and I said, Good morning, dad, how you this morning and I started setting up the CD player and and then my dad said, woke up he said, Yeah, good. And I run over to his bedside, I grabbed him by the hand. I said, Dad, I love you. And, and he just nodded his head. And I said, Dad, I love you a second time. And he said, I like you too. And then he's and then I said, Dad, I love you a third time and for the first time, so I was 33 first time in my life. And only time in my life. I heard my dad told me, they loved me. He said I love you too. And he actually went on to say that he was so sorry for being a bad father. And I just told him I in now this was all in tears, right? You did the best job you could. And I actually, I actually recalled, which was a miracle in itself. I recall the moment where that I could share with him that he came through for me. And he thanked me for sharing that with him. And it was actually something that I had taken into my father and believe it or not. And so I'm really grateful for the having had that memory come to mind. And also that moment with my dad, which was extremely precious.

Ian Hawkins: 19:22

Oh, I got chills all the way through that. Like, what a gift to give your dad. Like, I don't know what your spiritual beliefs are, but to be able to help him transition like that to make peace.

Unknown Speaker: 19:35

Obviously, you're like,

Ian Hawkins: 19:38

and again, I don't know, like, I know, through my coaching, there are times where I'm just like, What do I say here? And then I just wait and then the answer will come and like where does that come from? But that to me that's that divine element where whether you believe in God or whether you believe in that divine part of you. There's something playing out that allows us to find those

Unknown Speaker: 19:58

something bigger than ourselves. Yeah, you to say to in the something that something that happened in so my dad actually would you believe he would say, the doctors haven't come up to see me. And I'm like, What could I say? Well, they're not going to come and see you. They're done. You know, my dad was having had prior to the coma was having a blood transfusion every day, because his liver, couldn't process the couldn't clean the blood out, couldn't filter the blood out anymore. So he had to be transfused every single day. So now all of a sudden, after that going on for 612 months, he they're no longer doing that. And he's like, I don't understand what's going on. I couldn't have that I didn't have the heart to say, Well, Dad, they're not going to see you again, like, this is any minute now. I wasn't gonna be cruel, and so that my dad ended up living another three weeks. And we believe after a week in hospital, he ended up coming home and, and we had him at home for a week before he said he needed to take me back into another coma and then die. But during that time, during that time, I got to know the reason why he was a workaholic, and an alcoholic. And so I were kind of doing now the importance of story. There's always a story behind behind who a person is behind the way we are the way we are. And so what I hadn't heard, and I probably had kind of in passing, but really not, you know, as a teenager, you're kind of not taking a great deal or notice. But you see my dad when he was eight years of age, his 12 year old sister was killed in a hit and run car accident. And my dad believed it should have been him because it was his mother that came out to the back porch where it says he was playing with his sister. So my dad was eight and the sister was 12. And my dad was the only person in the family to have ever had a form of transport other than walking. He had a bicycle. And so it's his mom came out and said in would you ride across town to that one bakery, that your father will only eat that one type of bread from now my Dad, this is this is the crazy thing about this. And this is I think, as a teenager couldn't understand. My dad hated his dad, because his dad was the town drunk. So he hated was a deeply ashamed of his dad. And so he said to his mum, no, I'm not going. And so then his sister said, all go mummy jumped on my dad's push by road across town. And that was the last day sort of, it wasn't until he, after he come out of this coma that he was telling me after we brought him home was telling me about hiding behind the couch. And the two police officers coming to the front door, my his mother and father being there. And hearing the news mother collapsing his father trying to hold her up. And my father who was 53, about to die is now sounding like an eight year old boy. And he's sitting here saying they never invited me to the funeral, I was invited to the funeral. I wasn't invited to the week, you know, so in so my dad, and there's a really powerful scene in the movie, Good Will Hunting. And in fact, the same kind of scene is, is played out in a number of sort of movies, where ultimately, the person who's suffering need somebody to step in and say, Hey, all of that, it was not your fault. And my dad never ever heard that from his parents. And so as a result, he took on all of that guilt and shame. And what does a person do with that? You know, we're talking about grief. What does it person do with that grief? So he tried to the only things that he knew it, he lived dangerously, you know, stories of riding motorcycles through fire and stuff, you know, like he lived dangerously, he worked hard, became very good at what he did, because it's a distraction. And then when couldn't work, his he self medicated he'd an emphasize the pain by consuming alcohol. And so he was he lived the majority of his life 45 years or so, of just avoiding what he was feeling. And and so is it any wonder why the poor guy could not be a husband and could not be a father? So I guess that really, I think, I think, you know, having the ability to have actually as an adult and somebody who had already begun to process his own pain, actually, to be able to empathize, and, and not be so deeply emotionally scarred anymore, that I couldn't actually help him. You know, there's that there's that saying, again, it's used in movies, you know, where the student becomes the master. I mean, I effectively fathered my dad, you know, in his final years of his life, and wow. It was privilege. Yeah,

Ian Hawkins: 25:01

I bet. Darren, thank you so much for sharing that, I think, Well, men and women, but particularly men, who tend to hold it all in will get so much from that. And that phrase a you added, yeah, it's not your fault. It's one people need to hear. It's what men need to hear. And the amount of conversation I'm drawn to one particular conversation, similar thing where is young this guy is when he was for, like, another boy who is like, in inverted commas looking after drowns. And he carries a guilt for the rest of his life, like, how could that possibly be his fault? And, yeah, that's what plays out and it plays out in all these different ways. And, and which is why it's important for us to talk about it.

Unknown Speaker: 25:48

Absolutely. You got to be free from that you've got to feel the pain that you also have to have, like, I was able to have an understanding of who my dad was, I was able to forgive him before I knew that. But but to have an understanding of of Yes. You know, in that instance, this portfolio, a boy was just a kid himself, just a boy. And the reality is not to assign blame to anybody. But how should a four year old ever be responsible for you know, to take care of his younger, younger siblings? There's something else going on there that so yeah, it's, it's heartbreaking. Yeah. And it can start somebody and it can actually, I mean, one of the I love this, Henry David Thoreau said, he said, What did he say? He said,

Ian Hawkins: 26:45

paraphrase,

Unknown Speaker: 26:46

forgive me. Yeah, effectively, the the last part that I was going to share was, that's right. Most men lead lives of quiet desperation is the is the paraphrasing. And what I would say today is that most men live live live lives of quiet resignation, they resign their lives to be this is what it is, and there's just not going to get any better than this. But the last part of that quote says, they go to the grave with the song still in them. And so I believe that every single one of us has a calling has has a mission for our life has something to give somebody else even if it's just one other person to make the world a difference in that person's life. And, and my dad went to the grave with a song still in him, he his destiny had never been revealed. And that's what these things do, is they trap you in these places in these dark places. Where you're isolated you you're alone, and and you need to be freed from those places in order to discover your destiny and then and live it out. You know, so,

Ian Hawkins: 27:57

so good. That particular quote that you're talking about the first time I heard that was from Les Brown, and and that was one of those ones that listened to it again, and again and again. It's like, yeah, now we we need to get our story out is what I love about this platform, right? Like it's been, it's you sharing through your own experience, all of the learning and all of the important parts. And, again, I thank you for for sharing so openly about your journey, because it's the freedom, like as men that we feel when we're able to talk and to be able to connect with other men, and talk about what's going on. And find ways like you talked about when when there's work when you're at work, you've got a strategy, you got a process to go and follow and away you go. And most men, they get reasonable success there. But then they come to the other parts. And they're like, Well, what's my strategy? What's my process? And I love that you're providing a window for that to particularly through that. Getting them their way from their day to day.

Unknown Speaker: 29:03

There's a there's a no I mean, I'm gonna pray a paraphrase this there's a there's a beautiful statement that comes out of a book called Iron John, written by Robert Bly. Now I've got to say, I've not read the book. I own the book. I've not read the book myself. But I but I had read another author that quoted this. And effectively what Robert Bly says Is he says that our, our greatest were our greatest wound lies. That's where our genius our greatest genius can be found. And so, you know, what, what, what would be really helpful for people to know and certainly what is true of my story, and many others stories that I've listened to is that we know you don't have to remain in that deeply wounded place. And that wound is a part of your story, but it's not the end of your story and that wound can actually play a part in your ultimate destiny. And so it's really important to know that these things, you know, they hurt, and they've and, and you need to express the pain of that hurt, you need to feel that. But it's not the end of the story. It's not where your story and it's not, it's not where it's you don't have to continue living in that place. But you can actually use that as a platform from which you can actually help others. And you see that time and time, again, you know, on when when you do hear good news stories, you know, there's usually again, a story behind why they're doing what they do, and there's a link to the pain experienced.

Ian Hawkins: 30:43

Absolutely. And, actually, I did a individual podcast about this a few weeks back about 100,000 hours to about 10,000 hours. But when we've lived through pain, and we've desired ourselves to come away from that pain, and we see how that impacts others, we've actually been observing the world through that pain for our whole life. And exactly what you said, when we can realize it on the other side of that is a gift, you've already been using that gift, just honoring the way that you're giving any value. And when you can actually articulate it in a way that doesn't mean you have to go create a business like Darren's created, that doesn't mean you're definitely going to change the world, bring it to whatever you're doing now, that that's where that's where you get that fulfillment and satisfaction that so many, many are not experiencing. Yes, that's

Unknown Speaker: 31:36

exactly right. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 31:38

Do you mind if I dig a little bit deeper just to read some stuff in with your dad,

Unknown Speaker: 31:41

they're not at all, open book.

Ian Hawkins: 31:44

I don't know if you're familiar with some of the alternative ways of looking at medicine and like the Chinese meridians, for example, but around liver, but liver is where we store anger. And particularly those be ones like the rage and the and those things that we just can't process. And again, I want to open this up, because I know again, it's what a lot of men deal with, if you've experienced something like that. And at the same time, you also have been subjected to messages like Don't be angry, don't be upset, you've been told not to feel emotion, anger is a bad thing, all of those different things. And of course, you're going to, your body's going to retain all of that, and you're gonna hold all of that. And well, not denying the fact that drinking a slab of beer a day is going to absolutely impact your liver. Just having that that other element played out as well, at another level. So I was really struck by Him, him calling you specifically to vent all this stuff. There's probably an element of you always been that safe place for people to be able to do that. Because you do have that capacity just to hold so much of that in a you say you didn't act on it. And you said there was a shame to that. But it was I think, well, no, no, like that's your ability to without judgment, just received that and process it for him would have been so valuable, which is why he kept calling back.

Unknown Speaker: 33:07

It's actually something that Yeah, look, I think you know, where you sit in your family or just your personality or who you are, you know, how you white been wired to be. For me, I was the kind of Peacekeeper, you know, here's the thing is get get a load of this. From a counseling perspective, I like to ask people, so What's your earliest memory, we released two or three memories. So what my second most earliest memory was my mum coming to me when I now I was three. So my, my younger brother is four years, one month and three days younger. So I was three when this conversation happened. And I've since told my mum there so she couldn't believe it that I remember that. But I was three years of age. And she said, and she said now now when I knew my mum and my dad were they, I mean they were sleeping in separate bedrooms, they were not together. There were arguments. It was it was very unhealthy, very toxic. And but my mum came to me this day and she said, your father and I've been talking and we believe that it's time that you have a little playmate come along, you know, you're going to be a big brother, you know, to a little baby brother or sister. And and so you know what I internalized in that moment? I went great. It's going to be me that's going to have to take care of this child. Yeah. Again, we spoke about your other friends. You know, your other guest who's four was four years of age and what he carried. I mean, here I was this overly sense of being responsible of I just knew that my dad couldn't cope. My mum couldn't cope. And so I had to step up. And so I think for, I think really right the way through my mind My relationship with my mum and my dad, I was always the Peacekeeper, I was always the one that they could turn to. But again, that's not healthy. You know, it's, it's, um, I shouldn't have to carry on. And that's actually something I had to learn when I started counseling others was when I first started counseling, I made the grave mistake of believing that it was all up to me. If I failed, then this marriage is going to fail or this person is never going to have the life that they were meant to have and all of that. And I was able to thankfully I was able to be free from from that thought. But yeah, it's

Ian Hawkins: 35:35

it's incredible. And that's a really important point to share. Also for the for the empaths for the peacekeepers of the world that exactly what you described there has been going on for their whole life feeling responsible for other people's emotion. This might resonate, I remember having a recurring dream, where I was like a flooding. And it would go quicker and slower and but there was no pictures, it was just really dark and just a fraction of gray, a little bit of light coming through. Well, what I realized through my own journey of making peace with so much was there was actually a My first memory of being in the womb, right, coming out in the dream, the stress that my mom was experienced. So I'm already been responsible for how she's feeling from that moment. Which Please, yeah, mind boggling,

Unknown Speaker: 36:22

or if not responsibly, just being aware and lighter. And yet again, as an as a newborn baby or an unborn baby or a young child, you know, you shouldn't even be aware of those things. There should be some things that are gap. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 36:35

Yeah, absolutely. But then we grow these patterns have been responsible for how other people feel. And again, reinforced by the language that we heard and the messages we heard, you made me upset. You made me angry, all these different things. So how have you been able to imagine that has been a pattern for you to if that's been what you recognize from a youngster? How have you been able to process and make sense of that behavior and find improvement in that area? Well, I think

Unknown Speaker: 37:05

here's the thing is, I think that's a gift as well, right? So, you know, there, you know, to be able to listen to somebody to be able to really listen to really come to know, I mean, you know, when we when we my wife and I have counseled individuals and couples, and so on, you know, really, the first step is to listen to them, and then and then ultimately, listen to their entire story. Because we, you know, we have to come to an understanding as people that our past has affected us, and it affects our present, and it will affect their future until the unresolved wounds of our past have been healed. And so, so, look, that's been a gift for me. But it's like I it's like I say, though, it's it can't be it's wasn't solely up to me. I mean, for starters, they have a part to play in their own healing. Are they willing to deal with some stuff? Some, some people aren't, you know, it's that it's that saying Better the devil, you know, you know, sometimes you can, you're if you're if you've lived long enough, and your identity is wrapped up, you know, as as being a victim of sorts, then then to let that go and to go into something that that is something other than that is scary. We've talked about adventure. I mean, it's there's a great deal of risk to let go of the identity that you've been carrying around for so long. That couple that couple that with you know, you mentioned, you know, spirituality, I mean, I do have a faith. And so I think that at the end of the day, part of my I always say to people, actually, you're, you're meant to receive healing. I'm but the midwife in this process on hold your hand, I'm going to remind you to brief, but the healing actually is going to happen. And that's my role, you know, so I'm able to kind of step back from it and go, it's not all up to me. Yeah, not. And that was a wound that and that was a wound that I carried. And actually it was a wound so that here's the thing is is that my my work and my greatest worry in mind started off being a father wound that again, I was unaware of until I was about 30 years of age. But there was a wound that I became aware of, at about age 37. And I came to learn that it's what what I refer to as the all alone wounds, and so the medicine so with every wound comes a message. So we need to begin to listen to our own internal dialogue. My my internal dialogue was always like, you're on your own. It's all up to you. I could never delegate anything. You know, I was a leader in my in my workplace but but to try and delegate something, it was really really hard and guess what they always let me down. And it was just like It's just easier if I do it. And at least I know it's done right, you know, and it's like, Whoa, hang on a minute. And so my dad kind of really was probably the first person to send that message to me, you're on your own, because he was dealing with his own stuff. But but that message just kept on coming through my life. And, and it's amazing what agreements we make with those messages and how they become a vow that we have, and, and the self fulfilling prophecy. And guess what I was on my hiring because I kept saying that I'm on my own, you know, and we've got to, we've got to break free or that we got to be we've got to kind of place where we, where we realize this is happening and and it was so good when I finally I begin to began to invite others into my story into my life into the work that I do, you know, giving other people opportunities was so rich, and that was, and that was hard. It wasn't something that came easy to me initially. But but the more you do something, the more you grow. And so I've have gotten a whole lot better in that space.

Ian Hawkins: 41:07

Yeah, and also want to shine a light on something, you've also got a whole lot better out because your ability to link those things to I was I was linking it in my head, I was going to ask the question, but you're doing the job. For me. It's like no, that sense of being alone is very much linked to the responsibility. It's very much linked to that workaholic thing. Because we do trust someone and they don't get it right. We go off. Yeah, exactly how you described, I should have just done it myself. If if I can really highlight something is you said that that concept of Better the devil you know, because we worry about what we might find if we start digging and poking. If if there's there's no better example than what you're talking about now is like, when you do allow yourself the space to explore and realize it's not your fault. It's never worse on the other side. No, it's always better. And so there may be a fear of well, what? What's on the other side? It's,

Unknown Speaker: 42:01

it's always better. Yeah, the problem is, is that so you know, wound sheet we know this from a boil, you know, all sudden you got this little pimple Lee type thing and you're kind of digging at it, and maybe some germs get in and all sudden it blows up to the boil. Well, guess what? How does that going to heal? Right that the best way for it to happen is to actually lanced the wound, clean it out. And, and with us, as human beings, we have these boils, and we may not see them, they might not be on our bodies, but they're a part of us. And those wounds need to be lanced. And they need to be cleaned out. And, and so that's really important. It's, it's, it's really helped me, I think learning those things, and having another father in my life like a mentor, who is older and wiser, and who can listen to you, but also challenge you on the way that you think is really important. And so all of a sudden, you start to hear these things, and you kind of go, okay, and I think I think at the heart of who I've always been is I've been hopeful, I think hope is so important. When Hope is deferred, the heart grow sick. And so just that the hope that I've always had that things can be better. And it's risky, it's risky, it's faith, you need to kind of stepping out believing that things might be better. And and you're right, you're quite right they are but I also understand how hard for some it is and I've seen it I've worked with people who've really struggled to step outside of that. Because Because there's pain underneath, you know, when you go and Lance your boil, guess what it's gonna be, it's gonna hurt and you're testing. And so there's that pain that's there. And, and who wants to, really, but very few people really want to be the Indiana Jones kind of and go straight into the pain, you know, face that pain. And, and it's most most of us just human nature, we want to avoid pain. And so those undealt with places those unresolved places within us, we tend to not go there. And it really does require an invitation and a guide and somebody to kind of say, Hey, listen, I get that that's gonna hurt. But on the other side, things can be so much better. And I think that's important of relationship again, is to help build that trust with somebody and and that's what happened. That's the way it was with me to have a mentor who I genuinely believe loved me and, and and I trusted, trusted and so when he when he would help lead me through these processes, I was able to to just go you know, I mean, here's the thing is for me, I was like well, I know it's like The Matrix, the blue and the red pill, you know, it's kind of like, why no way that road leads, that's been my life for the last 30 years. I don't want to keep that, you know, that's not going to be healthy for my marriage, that's not going to be healthy, healthy for my kids. It's something unhealthy for me. So I've got to take responsibility for me here, and I've got to do the work and, and do whatever is necessary, really to come out the other side of this. And trust that I'm going to be okay. Trust that. All the king's horses and all the king's men might be able to put Humpty back together again. You know, it's, yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 45:40

People like you and I who have gone through these journeys. We still had our struggles before we actually did it. Right. Like. So it's like, if you're looking if you're someone listening and going, Oh, well, you know, it's easy for you to say it's like, well, it is now but it wasn't like for the longest time. I mean, I don't know about you. But the pivotal moment was my dad's passing. And that's just a couple of days ago was when we have to 17 years. But it took a few years before I was actually able to do anything about it. And then even Nana was like, just resisted and resisted it and resisted. So how did you overcome that resistance? Like, was there a was there a moment or was there? You mentioned having kids was a big one was that was that? Was that a catalyst for you going? I've got here?

Unknown Speaker: 46:38

Yeah, definitely you kind of I didn't want to. I want it to be different, in fact that I recall this moment when I was 17 years of age. So I kicked out a home when I was 16. And I'll own my part in there. So I came to the dinner table one night, provoking my dad. I didn't say a word. But I knew that doing what I did was going to get a reaction, I didn't quite realized that the magnitude of the reaction, but an unwritten rule in our home. My family of origins home was always have a shirt on at the dinner table. Now I came to the dinner table without a shirt on. And my dad flipped Islam. I mean, he went right off, and he kicked me out of home. And I actually lived out of home for more than 12 months. Wow. And the only reason why I went back home actually was because I mean, there's a long story around that, but I'll skip that. But the long the short of it was my mom left, my mom left my dad and and so I find out my dad couldn't have served to be honest with you. Because could the because the long story was that actually, he'd invited me to come back. And he said that he was going to seek change. Just two days earlier. And so I took my younger brother with me to clear out my place to move back home. And now also my mom's moved out and my and my mom said, That's it, I'm done. And I have so I phoned my dad to say, hey, you just wrecked it again, you know, like, because again, there was still this desire, even at 17 years of age of, I just want my dad to I just want my dad to, to want to get help. For me, you know, I let's make it personal. And so anyway, that didn't happen. And I realized I needed to move in to home, because I spoke to my brother and I said okay, so this is a story. Where do you want to live? And my brother said, Well, my dad's the one that's got money, like mom's got nothing like well, I'm going to live with dad. And I'm like, great. Alright, so I need to move back home to protect my younger brother and to be a parent to my younger brother, which I gotta say did not go well for my relationship with my brother because I was never a brother to him. I was always apparent to him. But that's a side story. But I recall this particular evening when my dad was drunk, and he was standing over we had a sunken lounge and he was standing on the top end of the sunken lounge and I was standing in the fucking lounge looking up at him. And he had drool coming down the side of his face. And he just started talking about my mother and effing slumped and that type of thing. And I just I just said that's my mother. I won't have you talked to talk about her that way. She's not here. Leave her out of it. And she he kept taunting and I just remember I just remember looking up at him and going I will never be like you I will be a good husband and a good father. But again, I didn't know how. So I found myself married at the age of 20. I mean, we've been married for 32 years now and and or coming up in June. And we didn't know how to be a husband, I didn't know. And when we had kids, you know, as a dad at 23. And so I didn't know how to be kids and be a dad to kids, I just knew what not to do. And, and so But thankfully, there was a man in my life who gave me a copy of a book. And the little subtitle, a top copy of the book was a father's role in guiding his sons into authentic manhood. And I remember looking at that going authentic manhood, like, what's that? And, and what a father, he's meant to do more than then go to work, and provide financially for his family and provide the discipline that the kids need. Like, there's something else required of me. I'm, I'm intrigued, began to read the book reached out to that guy who ended up becoming that mentor to me, and, and yeah, the rest is history. But yeah, there's certainly that desire of that other I always had long before I had kids of, I want to do this differently, I want to do this better, I don't want my kids to ever feel the way that I felt growing up in a home alone, having to defend my mom, you know, protect and defend my mother and protect and defend my, my brother and I wanted my kids to have a healthy childhoods, you know, where they could be children where they could be who they are unedited, without, you know, society and me specifically trying to shut them down in places and my wife was very helpful in and around that. But, you know, for the most part, what did I do, I effectively said to my wife, Hey, your parents have been married for 29 years before for her dad left. And my parents had been married for 16 years, and that was never functional, you appear to come from a good home. So I'm just, you know, delegating, abdicating to you and whatever you think works for marriage and families and, and eventually, when I was fathered by this mentor, and how to be a man how to be a dad, how to be a husband, I was then able to come back to my wife and say, Listen, I'm really sorry, for abdicating and really being passive and absent. You know, and so I just would love to just kind of, you know, play a part in our family moving forward, and everything changed when I when I did that. But again, I needed somebody to teach me, you know, you when we're when we're talking about one of the stories earlier on, the thing is, is that were too close to our own stories, you know, we that that saying, you know, you can't see the forest for the trees, sometimes it just needs another person, another man to kind of look in, and he can see things that are really evident, that we can't see when we look in the mirror ourselves. And so, you know, we need others. And here's where that wounds that I had of all alone, where now if I'm telling myself, I can't rely on anyone else, it's all up to me, I'm on my own, guess what, I'm not going to have mates. And so those mates or mentors, they're not going to be able to speak into my life for so it's, it's actually kind of shutting me down and preventing me from coming becoming who I was. So it does, it requires a great deal of risk to let somebody else in. And I remember a time where where I actually was sharing my story with somebody again, before my dad passed away years before well, actually was only a couple, he was only probably about 18 months before actually, but I remember sharing my story with him because he had asked. And it was amazing. Like I known this guy for about 10 years. And and he was a good man. And he just and so I for the first time ever though, I began to see things in me. And so I'm sharing my story and I, I felt my eyes begin to water up. And I just went I close my eyes and then continue the story. I just sort of sucked it in, you know, sucked it up. And and he goes he was good friend and he just said Darren. Only for 10 years now that is the closest I've seen you come to cry. Did you? Did you just see what you just did that? For the first time ever? I know it happened before, but I've never seen it before. But the first time ever, I'm like, Yeah, I do. And I say great. It's gonna be another 10 years before this thing cracks open again. And so he said, well, let's just let's just see like, let's just go back and begin sort of in and around that part of your story. This time I was aware when it came because it came again and this time I consciously chose to just Let it out. And honestly, it is like the, you know, Pandora's box, you weren't sure, you know, letting the genie out of the bottle. You're kind of like, what is going on, I don't know where this is going to end. This could end badly like, but I just thought, well, I've got to give this a shot of trust this man that's listening to me. And I felt like I cried for about five minutes. He tells me it was about 60 seconds. But it felt like five minutes, it felt like an eternity of just weeping and just being embarrassed about a man crying because when we're told, right, men don't cry. And so, and I remember waking up that actually went in and woke up my wife. And I said, Honey, I just cried. And she's like, oh, yeah, that's great, honey.

Unknown Speaker: 55:45

But the next morning, I woke up, and I looked in the mirror, and the windows of my soul had been cleaned. It was the best, the best analogy that I have is growing up, I had a few issues with earwax. And, you know, sometimes I had to have to go to the doctors and have to get this syringe. And when that happened, if somebody said a word that had s in it, it would be like them running fit their finger around crystal, you know, there was just this sharpness, this clarity. And now all of a sudden, I'm looking in the mirror, and I'm seeing things with greater clarity, because I allowed myself to stop trying to control that unbeknownst to me, I mean, here's the thing is you spoke about anger, work, a lot of anger comes out of the fact that when we finally come to realize that we've got no control, and so we so but but most of us aren't aware that we'd like to control things, and nearly every man, especially women, too, but nearly every man especially likes to begin to create a life for himself that he can control. And, and it's really sad, actually, there's a death of something because as a boy, most kids love to get outdoors and explore and engage in adventure. And then you see them get older and responsible. Now, responsibility is a very good thing. So long as it's not overly responsible, and then and but they start controlling their lives. And, and so you don't won't let something like that happen. And it's, and that's the tragedy that I can't remember who said it. But there's a saying, There's this quote that I remember, and it says, The tragedy of what dies inside of a man whilst he is still living. And you see that time and time again. Yeah, flyers where they just don't want to change. And that breaks my heart. And

Ian Hawkins: 57:45

yeah, me too, because we know what's possible on the other side, right.

Unknown Speaker: 57:51

And there's something that the world may never experience because they don't want to change, you know, they don't want to open up, open themselves up and begin to believe that somebody might be there for them, and might want to be a true friend and want nothing from them. And there are people out there who are willing to do just that for them.

Ian Hawkins: 58:11

So good. I was struck by what you said there about the the father figure that came into your life that something I've been playing with just recently, and I haven't worked out exactly how I'm going to articulate this. But the concept of Rich Dad Poor Dad, and the non financial version of that is what we provide, through that space, an alternative view of the richness of what's possible for life. It's got nothing to do with money, but at the same time, inexplicably linked as well. But it's that what we have gone through and what we've overcome, it comes back to that thing that you mentioned before, there's that gift in that and being able to have those people, fathers as you very much focused father figures to come in and be able to be that that rich dad that gives a different perspective. What a gift. So if you look at what you do, it's the gift they get for them. But the gift that they are able then to pay forward to every other man that they touch from having undergone that experience. Like what a gift to the world.

Unknown Speaker: 59:28

Yeah, my so my mentor, the the one whose book I read and changed my life. His surname is actually the same as mine, like is literally a father from another mother. But he is still right. So obviously, you know, at the end of every adventure that we run, you know, we have an end You know, I do a lot of other things other than the adventure stuff with the fathers and sons and fathers and daughters, but after certainly after every The adventure that we run and maybe not every event, maybe it's maybe it's once a once a year, I'll reach out to him and just sort of say, Hey, listen, thank you on behalf of these people like because, because of you, and the investment that you made into my life, I'm passing it forward, I'm, you know, I'm giving that on. And now here is some of the fruit of other people's lives that they're experiencing, because of you investing into my life. And that's exactly the way we can change. In fact, one of the things he did he quote, he one of the things that that it was, you know, it right in the beginning, so 1999 It was he, like, he had some resources, and one of the resources quoted, Confucius writing this ancient Chinese proverb and it said this, it said, if you want to be happy for an hour, go fishing, no, sorry, take a nap. If you want to be happy for a day go fishing, though, that's never been my experience personally, except for when I'm out on the Great Barrier Reef funds. If you want to be happy for a year, inherit a fortune. If you want to be happy for a lifetime, help someone else succeed. And that's exactly what he did for me and countless others. And it's exactly what I want to see. You know, that's what that's really what it all boils down. That was one of those things that that just that grabbed me is just like, Okay, I want to make the biggest amount of impact as possible. But I've certainly want to start by helping one person so I helped one person now started helping another person and another person, another person, and, and then in the end, ultimately fathering adventures, because once something else that he quoted was he after, after millennia, sociologists, anthropologists, after studying cultures, down through the ages, right the way around the world, agree on this, that as goes to the man. So goes to society. Now, that's not to say that women don't play an invaluable part, equal, but different. And so. So as a result, my, my desire to really help men specifically came out of that, you know, because if I think it will, if guess what, if I can help a man, I can help him with his marriage, if I can help a man, I can help his family, we can actually begin to really sort of implement change by by helping men and and then look, women needed help too. And, and thankfully, women are getting a lot of help, you know, there's some really excellent, you know, there's a lot of funding now for women and so on. For that, and you know, seeing them become more and more equal, and see that, that disparity kind of lesson, and it's just some good things are happening with women, and some good things are happening with men, people like yourself, and, and Gus Worland, I think it is, you know, like, they're kind of bringing bringing these things the purpose to the forefront and saying, Hey, men need one another, yet men need mates. And we can't continue living isolated from others, because we're always meant to

Ian Hawkins: 1:03:21

be together community. Yeah, absolutely. I love working with men, I also love working with women, because she can also have a really positive impact impact in a relationship and in a in a home by whoever gets the shift. Right. So I want to ask you about this, because a lot of this has been focused around your dad, but how, how was your relationship with your mom through all of that, specifically, I guess, through that lens of the the guilt that you felt, and then how have you been able to move forward with that relationship as you've gone on this journey?

Unknown Speaker: 1:03:59

Challenging, one word challenging. And my mom's still alive. She, she was the product of now I loved her dad. My grandfather was actually like a father to me. He fathered me in ways, you know, he was a tin miner, he took me out taught me about geology. He was passionate about that. And I shared that passion with him. It was infectious. And, but he was he was a really good grandfather. But he was not a good dad. And as a result, my mum was very broken. And here's the thing is, too many people come together in marriage thinking that marriage is going to solve them, you know, marriage is going to be better. It can actually be worse and I'm not I'm not trying to steer anybody away from marriage. The reality is, is we've got two broken people coming together. And the hope that just them coming together is going to make everything okay is insufficient. Yeah, And the brokenness in each of them has to be fixed in order to, for them to come together and have a whole marriage. And so my mum, courtesy of her dad, I mean, my mum when she fell pregnant with me. My dad kicked her out. That's sorry, it might her dad kicked her out that says, big wide world out there. Out you go. And I mean, hello. Like, that's not the father's hot, like, Oh, my goodness. And so. So yeah, look, she she was, you know, I talked about my, you know, I'm on my own. Well, she had hers, you know, it's like, and she rose up and she became, you know, like a crustacean, right had this hard outer shell to protect herself. So she didn't trust her husband, my dad, he didn't come through for her in the way that she needed him too. Again, I was kind of piggy in the middle, I was trying to trying to keep everything afloat, you know, keep everything. Okay. And, and it wasn't okay, it was never going to be okay. And so as an adult, I mean, we've had some, I mean, there's some stuff that that they're probably won't go into, because she may even listen to this. But the long story short, is that she has, she's quite bitter. You know, you know, when I said the Better the devil you know, I've had my mum at times on, on the cusp of of, of just letting it all go of just forgiving. You know, I remember sharing something, I think it might have been that story I shared with you about my dad just before he died, like after coming out of that coma and what he said. And I shared that with my mom, like, probably only a few years ago, so 15 years after he died. So let's say and I thought she would have been able to handle it. And she was just this venom that rose up in her. And it was just, it was awful. It was ugly. And, and it is she she tries she tries really hard to, to do the right things and to say the right things. But there's so there's been a there's a there's a pollution inside of her that she doesn't want to acknowledge, and have mopped up and really let anybody else into that kind of she's got this these walls and, and that's, that's again, the tragedy. I don't know whether she'll ever kind of so as a result, to be honest with you, most of my conversations with my mom, kind of go with me initiating a phone call, because it's the right thing to do. And her trying to start off at least being nice. Before then there will always be somebody in her world that's upset her or whatever, and just the venom that just drips out of and sometimes because I've tried going the other way to say Hey, Mom, you've got to eat this is unhealthy. I mean, I do say that still Mom, this is unhelpful for you. And it's actually not hurting the person that you want to hurt. Like the you know, do you want to try another way no answers more bitterness and yelling, and I end up putting down the phone. Oh, so put down my phone and, and I'll kind of just like I can hear still, like even it's not on speaker. It's just but I can hear I just kind of like wait about 90 seconds. And I'll pick up the phone again and say, Hey, I'm really sorry, ma'am. So a lot of time now because she doesn't have anybody she's on her own. And so you know, for a woman especially needs a man that she can just sound off of. Yeah, and she doesn't want to necessarily be it fixed. You know. And so I've learned enough to know now that I just have to love her for where she is at. and not try and fix her. But at the same time challenge her and, and I guess she started to have like there's there's a friend that's come into her life. And she's a good friend. She's a good woman. And I answered a prayer because I mean, there's some things that, you know, that she might be able to speak into, maybe my mom won't let me speak into so

Ian Hawkins: 1:09:35

probably the same things you've already said to her. But sometimes we just need to hear that different voice.

Unknown Speaker: 1:09:41

But all of that to say my mom is is is one of my greatest cheerleaders. I mean, it's almost embarrassing. You know, I just happened to to be the recipient of Queensland Father of the Year back in 2011. I remember my mum was in Townsville at the time and You know, I'd gone to Brisbane that function down there where I was named came back to Townsville, we were having a family barbecue down down at one of the parks, and there was this family that was walking past and, and my mum sort of stopped them out to this family and said, did you know my son just became a Queensland Father of the Year and it's like, Oh, mom, like they really don't care. Like leave them be they're going for a walk. And so all of that to say, she's my cheat sheet. She loves me, and she loves what I do. And she's so incredibly proud of me. I, you know, we don't get through this life unscathed. And I still think there's that there's a mother wound there, that still has yet to be. And that's the thing is where there's always something new. There's not there's there's another pass. And you really, like I'm getting through it. And don't get you got it right. When he was talking to Shrek, you're like an onion, you know, and so. So yes, we're just pulled back the layers, and there's something else. And then I don't know, I have not been able to put my finger on it with my mum. I'm just trying to love her as best I can, as well as we do with people that are a little prickly. Again, there's reasons why. Yeah, and sometimes they don't want to let go of that. You know?

Ian Hawkins: 1:11:31

I wouldn't, I would argue that just being there and listening to her event would be hugely valuable and healing in itself. And pre you're probably Yeah, a far more positive impacts. And maybe you're giving yourself credit. Again, come back to that the the ability for you to hold space and lessen the load for her while she, she processes that. I think, again, it's another skill that that too many men have lost or don't identify that as being a skill, but it is it's it's one of our greatest gifts to be create that safety and allow people to process in whichever way is right for them. So

Unknown Speaker: 1:12:16

yeah, I think I think my mum is always ready for a fight. You know, she's kind of she's she dislikes, she's always in the stance just waiting. You know, it's, it's like, when she left Dad, you know, it was like, it was like motor mechanics, you know, they're, they take advantage of the woman they think that we know nothing and so they're gonna double the price. And, you know, there's just all of this is always in a fight and always an argument and I'm not a I don't, I don't enjoy fighting. I mean, once upon a time, used to love it used to get in amongst it. But now, you know, it's like, Bruce Lee said, I always taught my kids this, and I did teach my kids how to fight because I do believe it's important to to defend yourself, but but I also always couple that with Bruce Lee saying the best way to win a fight is to not be there. You know, and so you don't, don't get in a fight and you've won the fight, you know, like so. I just think so I tend to try and avoid I'm more of a, a peace person, you know, like, let's just wife is meant to be loved, lived and enjoyed. And, and like this. Yes, there's, there's evil in the world. There's bad things happen and there's messy stuff, but, but it's not all bad. Like and sometimes sometimes it's just a perspective shift. You know, if you're just and sometimes I'll do that, I'll just say, like, Have you have you thought of it from this angle? And she'll go no, I hadn't actually yeah, I can see that now. You know, and so there's just little, you know, just I think whenever you work with anyone, I like I like in myself, I've said like a midwife before but but another another way to do it. And I think especially with a woman is really important. But men too, I probably shouldn't specify gender there but like a cold like the guys you know, they uncover dinosaurs and precious artifacts, you know, and they're just kind of like got the little brushes, you know, because they're not wanting to damage anything. I think we need to be like that we need to be tender when we go into those unearth places, vulnerable places. Archaeologists, we need to be like an archaeologist and be very careful and cautious and tender with them. So in so many ways, kind of just chipping away with my mum. Yeah, yeah, not there. Yeah, haven't arrived. See, we're all unfinished people. We're all in this in this story. From beginning to end, but but, but when not, we're somewhere in between. And that's where I'm at with my mom.

Ian Hawkins: 1:15:09

Thank you for sharing, again, I would reiterate the safe place that you create for her as she goes on that journey as well. We should be like an archaeologist, when we are looking after our own stuff as well. And not feeling like it needs to be cutting and slashing, but actually, just gently uncovering it and being patient with ourselves. So I love that analogy.

Unknown Speaker: 1:15:34

And that somebody else can be like that with us, as well. As I do a lot of self reflection stuff, but you know, I can't emphasize enough the importance of having somebody else, you know, be that for you, and, and not necessarily a husband, to a wife, or a wife to her husband, though those those are possible, but just you know, I think women need female friends and men need male friends and, and again, finding that person you can really trust to begin to open up within. And hopefully, because here's the thing is every single human being has a desire to be known. And to be accepted, once they're known. There's a fear that if that person really knows me, then they're not going to like me. So but if but if but but on the other side, to actually know that you are known by somebody else, and they still choose to love you and accept you. And call you friend is such a, you talk about riches, you know, that is that your that is an extremely rich man right there. Love it,

Ian Hawkins: 1:16:48

love it, you brought up a word that I was about to ask you about. And you use that word again, trust, and it actually like a notice a bit of a clearing or a catch in your throat when you mentioned it a couple of times before. Clearly, to me, you're someone who actually creates trust really quickly and and with people that you've really met. How important is trust for you and for the what you see, in changing the world through bringing more trust.

Unknown Speaker: 1:17:22

I think I think trust is essential. But sadly, there are a lot of people we shouldn't be trusting. It's this paradox, you know, it's this. And so I think you know, but again, you can't trust somebody that you don't know. And so that's why when I say you know, I'm an open book, I just sort of think the more that you can share it. So you've got to model it right, you know, you're kind of so when I, when I have somebody can't see me. And I want to get to know them, and to be able to help them. The best way for me to do that is to model it. So I kind of let them know what we're going to do the how the why. And then share a little bit about my own story of how I needed somebody there for me and and so that's how I try and build trust with others. People still have a choice to trust me or not. I don't give away trust easily. And I don't think we should I've seen people, you know, once bitten twice shy and I think I've had this happen to me, I think I've trusted people. And that trust has was not handled well. And so I think, you know, my advice to people, when we talk about trust is, is take your time, get to know them. And because we're always putting out we're we're all we're all wearing masks, right that the true us is it is very rarely the true person that you meet is very rarely the person that you're seeing. We all project an image and wear masks on what we believe that you want to hear or see or believe about you and so take the time to get to know a person. Walk with them, see them in when crises come, you know, how they handle those things. You know, I I'm a firm believer in mentors and I've had like, There's this one guy that I approached, it would be 22 years ago now I'd say 2023 years ago, and this other guy, and so this guy was just I was a bit of a hugger. I'm probably less of a hugger today. But But I I kind of remember I went up and grabbed this guy and hugged him. It was an older guy and Good man, you know, and I just, but there were some things that I, that I thought, Whoa, I don't like that about you but, but I really loved the way he I just whenever I was near him whenever I embraced him, there was just a piece that he had. And so I just I asked him, I said, Hey, would you mind mentoring me? In how I said, I don't have the piece? I see the piece in you that I don't have in myself. And I want that. So would you mind us getting together regularly like meeting every week? And just I don't know how long it's going to go for. But would you be up for that? And he goes, Yeah, of course. And so the and it probably only went for six weeks or so. And then I've kind of felt as though I took everything from him that I really wanted to take. But you know, you've kind of Yeah, so I think you've got to really get to know the person before you extend that trust. I mean, but trust is a risk and someone's trust can be broken. And, and but again, the danger is, is to never trust. And and that's that is one of my concerns for our world today. You know, we live in a world on social media. And so we're definitely putting our best faces forward and those places, will you you know, all of these friends that we have, and yet how well do you really know them? And so do you trust those people? Really, you know, maybe you shouldn't, you know, because sometimes people have some ulterior motives. But I think you get a general gist of someone when you're around them long enough to just know, this is a person I can trust. So they may be hard to find, but they need to be sought after anyway. And you don't give up just because the first person wasn't somebody that you thought you could trust, you know, find somebody else. Yeah.

Ian Hawkins: 1:21:53

Well said, what you described there is why often when I put out posts about my most challenging times, they're so well received, because people are like, oh, yeah, like, I want to see real. Yeah, that's right. We all have, we all have those moments. And yeah,

Unknown Speaker: 1:22:12

and I think that's it authenticity. And that's what actually is so very important. Is, is, is that person authentic? Yeah. And again, and that's why it's kind of nice to, to get to know them so that you're actually seeing them in all kinds of assets, not just the, in the controlled environment that you might create, where you seem to be somebody that knows what they're doing and so on. But actually, I mean, some of my some of the greatest adventures that we've run that have had the greatest, maybe not the greatest level of impact that's had great impact have been where things have gone wrong. You know, one example was we ran an adventure in Melbourne with his father daughter adventure, we had people come from Perth, Adelaide, down from Queensland, New South Wales people had flown in, drove for hours to get there. And, and we're setting up and they were in Melbourne in out of out of southeast in Melbourne and these lightning bolts came out of the sky. Not a cloud in the sky. But lightning bolts they started to fires at different ends of the ends of this ranch that were burning towards the ranch, we had to evacuate and and everything went wrong like effectively like we were had to be evacuated to a park in a nearby suburb. And wait until we heard we were there for hours before eventually I phoned them and they said look, the rural fire brigade has moved in we've taken over this place and and and we're closing we're closed for the next week and we're like well I've got I got like 16 father daughter pairs here from all over the country like what am I expected to do and and and in the end they put me into some money in the city and we lost a bunch of who they were like for father daughter pairs that are driven down from Wodonga and so they're like the reason why we live up there is because we don't like the city and so we don't want to go into the city to do his father daughter adventure we're going back home and and so we lost a bunch of people and it was I knew it was going to be costing us because we we those are literally cost price. And so but helmet cool and I just we went we proceeded we kind of had to make it up on the fly. By the time we got in the city. It was like 11 o'clock that night so the Friday night session had gone we had to reject everything and we had to find an outdoor like at some some form of adventure activity in the city. And of course everything's booked you know the kayaking down the Yarra River and stuff. It's all booked and and so but holding you cool and just the dads being able to say to their daughters, hey, we can make plans but sometimes things don't always go And just the just the feedback that I got from all of the dads just saying we can't believe how you handled that. That was incredible. And so I think again, being making yourself available first for people to see you at your very best and at your very worst and everywhere in between, I think it's really important to help build that trust.

Ian Hawkins: 1:25:19

Fantastic. Darren, I could literally just keep chatting all day with you. I'm going to wrap it up there, those so, so much gold out of that I've I always write down some little notes about what I'm going to use for highlights. I've got so many so many important messages for people to hear, which I'll be sharing out. And of course, I'll send some of those for you to share. If you feel called, of course, where can people find out more about you? You said you do the fathering adventures, but you also do other stuff as well? Where can people find out more about you? And where would you steer them towards to to if they wanted to connect with you?

Unknown Speaker: 1:26:00

Yeah, look, you know, if you read all of the all of the stuff that you know, you should be doing, it should be you know, there should be a Darren lewis.com or something like that. I don't know. But that the reality is, is I don't you know a lot of a lot of what I do and how I do it, and everything does come through relationship. And so public persona would just be the fathering adventures side of things. So you know, the way our websites fathering adventures.com.au. But you can go on there, whether it's fathering related or not, you know, and quickly, there's a Contact Us little section there that sends me an email or there's my email address their phone numbers there. So that's probably the best place where people can get a hold of me if they wanted to chat about something. Whether it's related to fathering or not.

Ian Hawkins: 1:26:49

Good man, Darren, thanks so much for sharing so openly. Like I said, so much wisdom and goal here for people listening, and

Unknown Speaker: 1:26:57

really doing what you do. I really appreciate just, you know, for to help people process their own pain, but also just even having some steps, you know, and sometimes hearing a number of stories. It's just if they just move one step closer to facing something that they wouldn't have faced otherwise, you know, then you've made that that, you know, changing one person make a difference in the life of one person, you know, it's worth it. Right. Well said, well said. So thank you for doing what you do. Appreciate welcome.

Ian Hawkins: 1:27:32

And thank you again, I appreciate the time and everything you've shared. Thanks, as well. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief, let's chat, email me at info at en Hawkins coaching.com. You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform